Former Fz6 rider, looking at getting Fz1, advice/help????

[Ssky0078]

I have a little advice from personal experience. I now have about 16,000 miles under my belt in just over 2 years of riding. I ride year round and have commuted to school (30 freeway miles there, 20 twisy miles back). I have gotten experience in rain and shine, with all kinds of hazardous conditions. My first bike was a seca 2. Less than 50hp at the wheel, 122mph top speed. I bought my fizzy recently, less than 3,000 miles ago, and I can say that I am glad that I waited. In the first couple of weeks on my jetted '02, i accidentally wheelied probably 5 times, one being in second gear out the apex of a turn (that was terrifying). The bike has a lot of power. If I had gotten this bike after even 5,000 miles of riding, I very well may have crashed. I do aggressive street riding and canyon carving is where I feel at home.

A month ago, I was riding at a (very) spirited pace, around 55mph, and came around a tight corner to see a giant patch of gravel in the middle of the road. I had enough time to jam the brakes hard (down to about 35mph) and then get back on the throttle to stabilize the bike and prepare for this next turn, full of gravel. I had no way to avoid it, so I chose a line that would run me off the road and I leaned my body off the bike. I helt the throttle steady, felt the bike slide about 4 inches sideways, and the second I got traction again, I dipped the bike hard to stay on the road. I made the turn with a couple of inches of road to spare.

Now, this is not to brag about my abilities, but the miles I have under my belt and a lot of experience saved my butt. Gravel isn't an automatic game over. I guarantee for every story of someone sliding out on gravel, there are several of people riding right over it.

Reading your posts, I can see that you are all business when it comes to riding. You do your homework and are clearly learning tons about technique and style that will help you a great deal. However, you don't yet have the experience to go with your knowledge. I only made it through that gravel patch because I burned these ideas into my brain through lots and lots of practice. My reflexes are no longer ruled by panic. It takes experience to get there.

If you get an fz1, you may be just fine. It also might end up a disaster. If you have the self control that I didn't when I was learning, and do a good job of staying in the 3-6k rpm range, you will likely be fine. Just be careful, though, as 20 hp kicks in in less than 1k rpms in the power band. I would recommend more time on a 600, or on something like the fz8.


In regards to your questions, I can't speak to the fz6 braking, but I can say that my bike stops on a dime. The dual discs make the braking ridiculously effective. The handling is also very nice, and the bike is really flickable if you understand countersteering. Suspension for a beginner will be just fine, even if you weigh 250. I weigh 220 and realize its limitations, but it is perfectly effective for a few thousand miles of taking it easy.

If you end up on the fizzy, great. I will look forward to seeing you on the forum. If not, stick around. There's a lot of nice guys who have a lot of knowledge. As for any that seem disrespectful or rude, try to think about intentions rather than their language. They are so serious about it because they don't want you to get hurt. It's a wicked fast bike.

Thanks man very helpful information. Your description of how you handled the situation is how I see myself in the future. Your right I'm a very analytical person, but I am so eager to get out and apply it to the street. I had just started working on the counter-steer process and was having a lot of fun with it. I'm still waffling back and forth between a '09 Fz6 or an '09 Fz1.

Check out the following bit from Keith Code on Counter Steering. I found it funny as hell

{Master this, and you can easily throw your bike two or three feet or even more in either direction, which gets really useful when avoiding potholes, broken glass, rocks, or whatever other junk is lying in the road and sneaking up on you. Of course, timing is crucial, so practicing this maneuver is what will really pay off in the end. And the more you practice, the more you will use this skill of "active countersteering" every time you are in just a regular old corner, without any debris. You will find yourself amazing your buddies and even yourself with "stupid human tricks" like passing people on the outside (with one hand on the handlebars... Works great when you spring the middle finger at your buddy mid corner), leaning the bike the WRONG WAY in a corner, and touching one peg and then the other, with a "flick..." "flick..." "flick..." back and forth, all while staying in one lane, and at 60 mph! You will also find that you tend to gravitate towards bigger and bigger bikes, as they will all seem light to you. And people will ask you, "How the hell do you flick that 650 pound K1200RS like that?!" Just smile and tell them it's in the countersteer.}

 

[Dustin]

This is from a previous thread of mine but I thought it might be nice info given the discussions in this thread:

So in the past few months I've spent some time reading as many riding books as I can get my hands on. While they've all been helpful or interesting in one way or another, these are the top ones:

Proficient Motorcycling - David Hough

More Proficient Motorcycling - David Hough

Sport Riding Techniques - Nick Ienatsch

Total Control - Lee Parks

I also watched the Twist of the Wrist II DVD. The movie is fun and corny enough that it makes a great DVD to watch with your riding buddies.

I especially liked Proficient Motorcycling; there's a lot of thought-provoking discussion in there and the book also focuses a lot on making you responsible for your own riding and not blaming other people, road conditions or bike setup. Fantastic.

 

[Earlzach]

I'm sorry but that last tirade about thinking I'm a pro-rider pissed me off.

I didnt meen to refer to you as pro. I was responding mostly to the "Even Valentino Rossi would have crashed" I'll be the first to admit I felt you was wandering if the FZ1 would have performed better and you would not have went down. The answer I had was you would have went down on any bike you were riding.

The FZ 1 is a great Bike. I dont have much personal knowlage of the gen 2 but I owned a gen1. I can speek for its power due to the fact htere isnt much difference between the two.

You will get better reflexes as time goes on. No doubt. But you have to get there. I am not a fan of learning on a Liter bike. The punch is SOOO much different than the 600.
If you have good self control I say go for it. But dont think the better handleing and power is going to keep you out of trouble.

I would rather ride a slow bike fast than ride a fast bike slow.
I was not out to piss you off. I must have been reading your concerns different than you meant them.:cheers:

 

[Ssky0078]

I didnt meen to refer to you as pro. I was responding mostly to the "Even Valentino Rossi would have crashed" I'll be the first to admit I felt you was wandering if the FZ1 would have performed better and you would not have went down. The answer I had was you would have went down on any bike you were riding.

The FZ 1 is a great Bike. I dont have much personal knowlage of the gen 2 but I owned a gen1. I can speek for its power due to the fact htere isnt much difference between the two.

You will get better reflexes as time goes on. No doubt. But you have to get there. I am not a fan of learning on a Liter bike. The punch is SOOO much different than the 600.
If you have good self control I say go for it. But dont think the better handleing and power is going to keep you out of trouble.

I would rather ride a slow bike fast than ride a fast bike slow.
I was not out to piss you off. I must have been reading your concerns different than you meant them.:cheers:

No worries man, I just realized as I was replying I was getting more and more heated, maybe cause it's hard to get out what I want to say when typing. I was going down regardless of the bike I was on for sure except maybe a 250 that was a little lighter and could stop quicker but then again I would probably quit riding in about a month on a 250.

I mainly want to know if I am smart/reasonable/cautious that I can grow into the Fz1 with time, rather than getting another 600 and having to swap it in a short amount of time or end up having to dump a ton of money into modding exhaust, PC, Shock, Springs, etc. just to keep the lust alive for the sport.

 

[Dustin]

I was going down regardless of the bike I was on for sure except maybe a 250 that was a little lighter and could stop quicker but then again I would probably quit riding in about a month on a 250.

I agree, you would have went down regardless of bike. However, another rider may not have. I think accountability is key. You hit gravel and crashed, yes, and it's primarily yourself who is at blame. What's important is to tell yourself you fucked up and focus on what you did wrong & how to prevent it from happening next time. I know it sounds ridiculous but it's certainly something that has helped me. Ego gets in the way of this realisation, though. That is the difference between an accident and a crash. I think so, at least.

Accidents do happen, though. I was witness to a fellow forum member hitting a deer in September when we were on a ride in Oregon together. A young deer ran out from behind some rocks and he hit it straight on. This to me, is an accident. It was something unpredictable and almost completely out of his control, even for a very mature, smart & extremely experienced rider as he is

I've crashed a few times. Thankfully, the main damage was to my ego. At the time I blamed gravel, cold tires and stuff like that. I realised later that the fault was my own and mine alone. As you become a more proficient rider, you become more aware of what's happening beneath you as you ride. You also become better at analysing the road ahead of you and spotting dangers.

I don't consider myself a fantastic rider but I can definitely say that over the years I have become much more tuned into what my bike is doing. I also have learned and practised skills and techniques and worked on correcting my bad habits. Just this year alone I can recall riding through plenty of hazards that surely would have caused me to wind up on my ass a few years ago.

In that same vein, I can think of a few "oh shit" moments that show me I've still got a lot to learn. In October, I was riding up Mt. Baker in Washington in October with tombraider2 from this forum and hit some gravel I wasn't prepared for. I panicked, stood the bike up and hit the brakes. I wound up out of my lane briefly as I steered the bike around the gravel. Had there been a car coming at that moment, I may well have been run over and maybe killed. While on a road trip in California in June, I went into a sharp corner more quickly than I could handle and had to do the same thing. No gravel that time, just lack of confidence & skill to turn the bike that bit more I needed to. Again, I panicked and went wide, a very bad thing.

Just my thought I'd share my opinion :2cents:

I mainly want to know if I am smart/reasonable/cautious that I can grow into the Fz1 with time, rather than getting another 600 and having to swap it in a short amount of time or end up having to dump a ton of money into modding exhaust, PC, Shock, Springs, etc. just to keep the lust alive for the sport.

I think you should consider all the advice here and make the decision you think is right. You seem like a smart guy and you'll make the choice that is right for you! :thewave:

 

[fisherman322]

No worries man, I just realized as I was replying I was getting more and more heated, maybe cause it's hard to get out what I want to say when typing. I was going down regardless of the bike I was on for sure except maybe a 250 that was a little lighter and could stop quicker but then again I would probably quit riding in about a month on a 250.

I mainly want to know if I am smart/reasonable/cautious that I can grow into the Fz1 with time, rather than getting another 600 and having to swap it in a short amount of time or end up having to dump a ton of money into modding exhaust, PC, Shock, Springs, etc. just to keep the lust alive for the sport.

Take a FZ1 for a test ride, then make up your mind,it doesn`t sound to me your going too be happy with another 600.

 

[Earlzach]

No worries man, I just realized as I was replying I was getting more and more heated, maybe cause it's hard to get out what I want to say when typing. I was going down regardless of the bike I was on for sure except maybe a 250 that was a little lighter and could stop quicker but then again I would probably quit riding in about a month on a 250.

I mainly want to know if I am smart/reasonable/cautious that I can grow into the Fz1 with time, rather than getting another 600 and having to swap it in a short amount of time or end up having to dump a ton of money into modding exhaust, PC, Shock, Springs, etc. just to keep the lust alive for the sport.

I look at Modding a 600 like the old saying.
" You can dress up a pig, but its still a pig" No pun.
Get the FZ1 just dont leave your gear at home. Ride with intent to crash and more than likely you wont.

I realy was trying to discourage you from wanting a faster Liter bike if you only had intent to go faster. With more power and speed you need to change your stopping distance and lean angle. The FZ1 is a great bike hands down and it the right hands it can hang with almost any super sport rider on the street. You would be surprized how many peeps have them and still park in the turns. But all the same they are riding within : Thier own" limits not the limits of the bike.

What ever you do get the feel of the bike nothing else. Dont Ever EVER, think because you did this turn at this speed or that turn at that speed it will be the same for ever. One day the conditions will be different due to Lose gravel, oil or what not. But If you have a good feel for your bike and recognize it stepping out a bit you will be able to correct it most of the time.

Street riding for heavy carving is a risk in its self because things change. At least at a track they have peeps that actually work hard to see that the track has a consistancy to some degree. Cant help temps and weather just by walking the track but oil and most debrees are removed.

Dress for the crash not the ride.
A mind is like a parachute! It only works if its open!

 

[Ssky0078]

Thanks guys, I fully acknowledge my limitation of my skill which is what prevented me from being able to correct my gravel slide and save the bike.

I can at least say I've lived and learned.

I appreciate the Twist of the Wrist rec. LOL, the guy thought his problem was the bike. I dont' think the bike was my problem at all, I could probably get a lot of good riding in on a 600. I'm just planning on throwing 15-20k a year on a bike that I hope to keep for a good long time. I hate the thought of paying sales tax and shipping charges multiple times to get to the right bike.

I love the video. Original GoPro footage.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pocXYyHCuw]Twist of the Wrist Intro - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Dustin]

I can say that I'm on bike number 9 and I still haven't found 'the right bike'. Your mileage may vary, though

 

[Ssky0078]

I can say that I'm on bike number 9 and I still haven't found 'the right bike'. Your mileage may vary, though

LOL, I average about 3-5 years per car. So I hope I can get at least 2-3 years out of the bike.

 

[ethandf06]

Well I agree that any rider can crash at any time, I respectfully disagree with the rest of those statements. :shoot:

Im talking about hitting gravel at a decent speed and I mean gravel not a little loose junk. There are large gravel areas were gravel roads merge to pavement and you would be SOL if you hit one when your tucked. I didn't realize he was going slower than the speed limit it seemed like he was canyon carving in his post. It just seemed like we were jumping down this guys throat before we got the details. You would have to have some dirt, drifting, and some serious luck to save it. Then again when I think about it you would have to be going into the corner with to much speed and breaking your line to end up in a situation like this in the first place so I guess my point is somewhat invalid. I haven't gone into a corner with to much speed to compromise my line enough to put me in the gravel. Besides Being a hooligan and carrying a wheelie off the pavement. :banghead: I think the guy will be fine with the FZ1 there is more juice by a long shot but I don't think he will do it again. I think keeping your line is very important and when you cant panic sets in and you end up on your butt.

 

[ethandf06]

No disrespect and not attempting to start anything. But your statement declaires every bike that goes into that corner will go down or has gone down?

Experience plays a huge roll in handling a bike. Gravel in a corner is one of the MANY MANY hazzards of street riding. Experience will tell you if your uncertain of the terrain SLOW DOWN! Not all bikes will crash in gravel. Just thoes that use it as an excuse for not riding correct for the conditions. An experienced rider tends to expect danger. He will too now that he has experienced it.

Dude go buy the FZ1 you will be a pro in know time. It sounds like you need more power and speed. after 6 months I dont see why your not on the circuit signing autographs. I hate to say it but letting you feel your ready to take on more power with your I want speed with no real experience is a recipe for disaster. Good luck!

Learn from the mistakes of others.

I replied to dustins reply. You guys are right you would have to compromise your line to end up close enough to the gravel anyways. And the stuff in the middle of the road isn't beyond any riders ability to keep it shiny side up.

 

[ethandf06]

That being said i still don't think he should change his mind about the fz1. The fz1 can flat hall @$$ but it takes a lot of rpm to get it ripping. Its power is very manageable. Plus he wont have to go through the whole upgrading and selling which seems like he doesn't want to do. He wants something to keep for a while.

 

[Ssky0078]

I replied to dustins reply. You guys are right you would have to compromise your line to end up close enough to the gravel anyways. And the stuff in the middle of the road isn't beyond any riders ability to keep it shiny side up.

I'm gonna go out there Thursday and bring the camera and take video and photo. If anything for my own benefit.

If I'm using the correct terminology it was a sharp left turn with a positive camber that ended in a decreasing radius. The crap from the shoulder had washed down into this groove/hole in the asphalt down to the underlying concrete. In the $hitty backroads in AZ they have a lot of old concrete that they just recover with ashphalt when it gets too bad. I had started the corner on a tight line next to the yellow, there was this large grove that started about mid corner. I elected to shoot in the center of the grove as is I was concerned about the 1/2-1 inch change in road height to either side to get out of the hole/goove. As I was almost out of the corner, just after the apex is when I hit the loose crap gravel and I would say it was about a 3-4 foot long by about 2-4 feet wide section that looked like the tarmac. It kicked the tire out, stood me up and I completely lost my line. I almost, almost, so freaking close was able to get the bike back into finishing the corner but I was too close to the whiteline and shoulder about 6-10 inches is all I was dealing with as the radius was decreasing still. If I was anywhere with a shoulder that had 2-3 feet of flat ground I would have just went straight and braked hard, but I was staring at a cliff instead with a shoulder about 2 feet of down grade. I just leaned the bike into the hill to keep from going over the edge.

Ultimately there was a number of things I could have done better. I'm glad I'm alive to banter back and forth about it. ATGATT FTW.

I think the pics and or video will help everyone understand the number of factors I was trying to compute all at once while attempting to stay shiny side up.

 

[Evitzee]

That being said i still don't think he should change his mind about the fz1. The fz1 can flat hall @$$ but it takes a lot of rpm to get it ripping. Its power is very manageable. Plus he wont have to go through the whole upgrading and selling which seems like he doesn't want to do. He wants something to keep for a while.

All true, but it takes discipline. Some riders do not have the discipline necessary to moderate their use of the hp available. You see the same thing in high performance cars, some owners just can't resist using the power on tap. I don't know the OP, but my gut feeling from reading his posts is he just has that desire to wring that throttle to experience the performance, and that is a recipe for disaster. Only the OP can answer for himself if he has the discipline to moderate the use until he becomes far more proficient. But there is a big difference in the net power of an FZ6 (maybe 85 hp or so) to an FZ1 with 125-130hp stock. Cracking the throttle open on an FZ1 produces something far different than an FZ6, that's a fact. If you aren't disciplined you are asking for trouble.

 

[ethandf06]

I'm gonna go out there Thursday and bring the camera and take video and photo. If anything for my own benefit.

If I'm using the correct terminology it was a sharp left turn with a positive camber that ended in a decreasing radius. The crap from the shoulder had washed down into this groove/hole in the asphalt down to the underlying concrete. In the $hitty backroads in AZ they have a lot of old concrete that they just recover with ashphalt when it gets too bad. I had started the corner on a tight line next to the yellow, there was this large grove that started about mid corner. I elected to shoot in the center of the grove as is I was concerned about the 1/2-1 inch change in road height to either side to get out of the hole/goove. As I was almost out of the corner, just after the apex is when I hit the loose crap gravel and I would say it was about a 3-4 foot long by about 2-4 feet wide section that looked like the tarmac. It kicked the tire out, stood me up and I completely lost my line. I almost, almost, so freaking close was able to get the bike back into finishing the corner but I was too close to the whiteline and shoulder about 6-10 inches is all I was dealing with as the radius was decreasing still. If I was anywhere with a shoulder that had 2-3 feet of flat ground I would have just went straight and braked hard, but I was staring at a cliff instead with a shoulder about 2 feet of down grade. I just leaned the bike into the hill to keep from going over the edge.

Ultimately there was a number of things I could have done better. I'm glad I'm alive to banter back and forth about it. ATGATT FTW.

I think the pics and or video will help everyone understand the number of factors I was trying to compute all at once while attempting to stay shiny side up.

That would be great to see how it went. Some things you just cant avoid. I didn't like everyone jumping on your case earlier in the thread. I think its all calmed down now haha.

 

[ethandf06]

All true, but it takes discipline. Some riders do not have the discipline necessary to moderate their use of the hp available. You see the same thing in high performance cars, some owners just can't resist using the power on tap. I don't know the OP, but my gut feeling from reading his posts is he just has that desire to wring that throttle to experience the performance, and that is a recipe for disaster. Only the OP can answer for himself if he has the discipline to moderate the use until he becomes far more proficient.

That is true there are bunch of funny videos of guys in lambos making the back end go faster than the front. I don't think he will do it again. And if he does he will regret it. Abusing 140-150 hp can be extremely painful at the least. Hes going to post video and pictures of the incident and it will be a good learning experience for him and all of us.

 

[Ssky0078]

All true, but it takes discipline. Some riders do not have the discipline necessary to moderate their use of the hp available. You see the same thing in high performance cars, some owners just can't resist using the power on tap. I don't know the OP, but my gut feeling from reading his posts is he just has that desire to wring that throttle to experience the performance, and that is a recipe for disaster. Only the OP can answer for himself if he has the discipline to moderate the use until he becomes far more proficient. But there is a big difference in the net power of an FZ6 (maybe 85 hp or so) to an FZ1 with 125-130hp stock. Cracking the throttle open on an FZ1 produces something far different than an FZ6, that's a fact. If you aren't disciplined you are asking for trouble.

'09 Fz6 vs '09 Fz1
HP: 97 HP at 1200 RPM vs 130 hp at 11500 RPM
Torque: 46.5 lb-ft at 1200 rpm vs 70 lb-ft at 9500 rpm (nice even 60 lb-ft till 7000 rpm)
Weight: 459 lbs wet weight vs 485 lbs wet weight
Weight:HP 4.73lbs/HP vs 3.73 lbs/HP
Front Brake: Dual 298.00 x 5.0 mm vs Dual 320.00 mm
Rear Brake: 245.00 x 5.00 mm vs 245.00 x 5.00 mm (same brakes in back)

To be honest the HP isnt' what scares me, the jump in torque is what scares me. That is what lifts the wheel off the ground and spins the tires if torque works the same way in motorcycles as in cars. :angel: I mean looking at the Dynochart on 2Bros website comparing stock can vs theirs from 7000-9500 is when the full kick comes in on the Fz1 which is much lower in the peak power curve in comparo to the Fz6

And as for cracking on the throttle, the Fz6 had plenty of balls to respect. I still had to manage it coming out of the corners and could only roll on hard if I was riding low rpms in the corner. If I had the RPMs up I could feel the back want to bust loose sometimes. I would only really crack on it when I was aimed in a straight line with a good distance of open space in front of me and no entrance/exits to the roadway. My favorite is the 1/4 mile on ramps we have here. Great place to legally practice 0-60.

Respect the bike the same way you respect a gun, the minute you stop paying attention is the minute somebody gets hurt is what my dad told me the other night when I was telling him about the discussion here.

 

[Ssky0078]

That would be great to see how it went. Some things you just cant avoid. I didn't like everyone jumping on your case earlier in the thread. I think its all calmed down now haha.

It has, and it is a lot more helpful now. I think I just put some stuff in there about pushing the limits early in the posts and the :squid: alert went off for everyone.

 

[Ssky0078]

A question about cornering

I just got hooked on another spree of rnickey mouse's youtube channel. Best crash videos on the web.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_vnfaO4PE8&list=UUvtfT-xYX4Q-jC2Mbsk3OUA&index=5]Mulholland Riders September 2012 - YouTube[/ame]

And they have a bunch of guys in race suits on gsxxr's, R1s, duc's etc dragging knees on some pretty cool corners.

If you get your butt off the inside of the bike does that allow you to keep it more upright, thereby giving you more traction when going for speed in a corner.

BTW I don't intend to do this in the Fz1 or Fz6 just yet.