Seat Time

Norm said:
BTW, will someone please tell me what all these "BAD HABITS" are that everyone but Keith Code and T84A seem to have. Please be specific. I'm curious to know how against all odds so many of us have survived with these bad habits.
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dude the list is longer than all of this posts in this trashy thread. if you can't even think up of some examples of bad riding habits, you sir are beyond help. gas/brakes/maintenance/body position/cornering i mean shit the list is huge. you apparently think you know better than keith code, ok, so where's your book that's been used for years as the standard for learning how to properly ride a bike? lets put this as plainly as i can possibly think

everyone has a bank account of talent. you add to that balance through seat time and coaching/instruction/reading. you take away from that balance through issues with the bike, it takes more talent to compensate for knowing how to ride a bike with bad tires, suspension, chassis set up, engine out of tune etc.

so if you start out with 5 bucks, and ride poorly but ride a lot, you're adding another 5 bucks. but with lets say an hour of instruction from someone who knows the theories and how to practically apply them, you add 50 bucks. some people naturally have a lot of talent, but thats the minority, most people need every bit of help they get. if you ride with bad habits all the time, it doesnt make you a safer rider, it makes you a lucky one.

i started riding 6 years ago on cruisers, and put tens of thousands of miles behind me. 2 years ago i switched to sport bikes and hit the track, i learned more during my first track day than the 4 years riding prior because someone sat down with me and went over the theories behind why a motorcycle does what it does and briefly went over the same stuff in a keith code book.

the fact that you're ignorantly stating what you're stating means that this thread has no hope and that if i told you 2+2=4 you'd argue it wasn't, until i went and got 2 apples and 2 oranges, then i'd have 4 fruit and showed you to your face.
 
jared p said:
dude the list is longer than all of this posts in this trashy thread. if you can't even think up of some examples of bad riding habits, you sir are beyond help. gas/brakes/maintenance/body position/cornering i mean shit the list is huge. you apparently think you know better than keith code, ok, so where's your book that's been used for years as the standard for learning how to properly ride a bike? lets put this as plainly as i can possibly think

everyone has a bank account of talent. you add to that balance through seat time and coaching/instruction/reading. you take away from that balance through issues with the bike, it takes more talent to compensate for knowing how to ride a bike with bad tires, suspension, chassis set up, engine out of tune etc.

so if you start out with 5 bucks, and ride poorly but ride a lot, you're adding another 5 bucks. but with lets say an hour of instruction from someone who knows the theories and how to practically apply them, you add 50 bucks. some people naturally have a lot of talent, but thats the minority, most people need every bit of help they get. if you ride with bad habits all the time, it doesnt make you a safer rider, it makes you a lucky one.

i started riding 6 years ago on cruisers, and put tens of thousands of miles behind me. 2 years ago i switched to sport bikes and hit the track, i learned more during my first track day than the 4 years riding prior because someone sat down with me and went over the theories behind why a motorcycle does what it does and briefly went over the same stuff in a keith code book.

the fact that you're ignorantly stating what you're stating means that this thread has no hope and that if i told you 2+2=4 you'd argue it wasn't, until i went and got 2 apples and 2 oranges, then i'd have 4 fruit and showed you to your face.
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Easy there. Let's keep it civil. :rant: I may agree with some of your points, but I won't tolerate the attitude.

1334758973_Calm_down_spartans_gag.jpg


There's no need for that. :shoot:
 
jared p said:
dude the list is longer than all of this posts in this trashy thread. if you can't even think up of some examples of bad riding habits, you sir are beyond help. gas/brakes/maintenance/body position/cornering i mean shit the list is huge. you apparently think you know better than keith code, ok, so where's your book that's been used for years as the standard for learning how to properly ride a bike? lets put this as plainly as i can possibly think

everyone has a bank account of talent. you add to that balance through seat time and coaching/instruction/reading. you take away from that balance through issues with the bike, it takes more talent to compensate for knowing how to ride a bike with bad tires, suspension, chassis set up, engine out of tune etc.

so if you start out with 5 bucks, and ride poorly but ride a lot, you're adding another 5 bucks. but with lets say an hour of instruction from someone who knows the theories and how to practically apply them, you add 50 bucks. some people naturally have a lot of talent, but thats the minority, most people need every bit of help they get. if you ride with bad habits all the time, it doesnt make you a safer rider, it makes you a lucky one.

i started riding 6 years ago on cruisers, and put tens of thousands of miles behind me. 2 years ago i switched to sport bikes and hit the track, i learned more during my first track day than the 4 years riding prior because someone sat down with me and went over the theories behind why a motorcycle does what it does and briefly went over the same stuff in a keith code book.

the fact that you're ignorantly stating what you're stating means that this thread has no hope and that if i told you 2+2=4 you'd argue it wasn't, until i went and got 2 apples and 2 oranges, then i'd have 4 fruit and showed you to your face.
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Intelligent post. That was a big help. Thanks.
 
The post is designed to have you think for yourself. When you applied for auto insurance they asked you what was your highest level of education. For Jared P and T84A it was high school. The reason for this is that higher education correlates with safer driving. There are a lot of statistics available for autos which is why the actuaries have been able to stratify you into dozens of categories. Some even use credit scores because again, there is a correlation with good credit and safe driving. The point of this thread is that there is precious little statistics or good studies involving motorcycles. This handicaps the actuaries and therefore there are a lot less stratifications available for motorcycles.

This lack of good information has made the motorcycle world a breeding ground for charlatans, self anointed experts, and know-it-alls, like T84A and Jared. Since there is a paucity of information I am asking you to think for yourself. I've read the books. Some are more helpful than others. Keith Code is no more useful to me than Tony Stewart telling me how to drive.If Keith Code helped "you" I understand. But please don't tell me he's the "standard." Says who? Jared and his buddies?
 
While there may be a correlation between academic education and responsible/safe driver/rider, that is not the general case!

Riding is a different art that needs proper education to do it correctly with safety and high skill.
 
Norm said:
The post is designed to have you think for yourself. When you applied for auto insurance they asked you what was your highest level of education. For Jared P and T84A it was high school. The reason for this is that higher education correlates with safer driving. There are a lot of statistics available for autos which is why the actuaries have been able to stratify you into dozens of categories. Some even use credit scores because again, there is a correlation with good credit and safe driving. The point of this thread is that there is precious little statistics or good studies involving motorcycles. This handicaps the actuaries and therefore there are a lot less stratifications available for motorcycles.

This lack of good information has made the motorcycle world a breeding ground for charlatans, self anointed experts, and know-it-alls, like T84A and Jared. Since there is a paucity of information I am asking you to think for yourself. I've read the books. Some are more helpful than others. Keith Code is no more useful to me than Tony Stewart telling me how to drive.If Keith Code helped "you" I understand. But please don't tell me he's the "standard." Says who? Jared and his buddies?
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so, for anything other than motorcycles, higher education is a good thing over experience??? :fencers:

Knowing what to do and practicing it is better than riding lot of miles with no training...

"He said: “Ride Norm ride. Stop reading and ride. You want to be a good rider? Then ride.”" you've gone full circle about the topic here... in my humble under-educated opinion...
 
I think we can all agree the key to improving requires BOTH seat time and instruction. If you ONLY read from a book you will not be a good rider the first time you get on one, it does take time.
 
Ok. I'm nothing more than an amateur with 36 years of experience. I suck at riding because I have no proper training. I especially suck because I've never watched or read a single Keith Code instructional. I cannot possibly ride a motorcycle! I have a ton of bad habits and no idea how to corner.

New bucket list:
1. Watch all of Keith Code's videos
2. Read all of Keith Code's books
3. Go to the school of Keith Code and ride that super useful and awesome instructional machine that gives you zero real-world experience.

If I complete these three amazing tasks, I'll beat fricken' Rossi, the Doc himself, on the track, win the Isle of Man TT and surely win over the hearts of all of you nay-sayers. :D :tup: :Rockon:

Norm, you with me? Let's get crackin' and earn some respect here.

Seriously though? When I took the MSF BRC with my wife so she could get her license.... here's how it went. In the class with about 15 people and two State Troopers as instructors.... They asked me why I was there. I told them I was there to support my wife and help when needed. When they ran the course, they always had me demonstrate the steps, not one of them, because I was what they called "an accomplished and smart rider." I did not let them down and demonstrated what they asked me to perfectly. In the end, I aced both the course and the written test to pull the only perfect out of the class. They even courted me for a week trying to get me to become an instructor. When they asked me who it was that I had gotten training from, I told them what I've told you all here. Me. Myself. My learned skills came from studying the physics of my own bikes, my own riding and when I was stuck, asking questions.

I'm still advocating seeking help with proper technique BUT, I'm still siding with seat time and experience is the only way I could ever become a skilled and accomplished rider. I cannot speak for anyone else but I can sure encourage riders to get in the seat and put miles on the bike because you're not going to learn a lot from a video or a book.

Disclaimer: Yes, I am being sarcastic in my posting and if you take me seriously, then you don't know me well enough. Please don't read into any of it that I'm making it personal. Trying to be funny with sarcasm often doesn't come across in a forum. ;)
 
CrazyBiker said:
While there may be a correlation between academic education and responsible/safe driver/rider, that is not the general case!
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I would agree with this... In the NASCAR Sprint Cup league, there is only ONE active driver with a college degree... and he is an engineer that actually works on and designs parts for his own engines. ;)

The rest? HS and drop-outs... almost none can spell SAT let alone score on them. Hahahahahaha!
 
I get the feeling there are different levels of skill being talked about here. As far as just regular street riding at legal speeds, the margin for error is great, as it should be on the street. I like to exceed this at times and I feel that the Keith Code (just happened to be his, I'm not in love with the guy :stirpot:) video helped me understand a few things that I didn't realize I was doing. For instance, I was under the misconception that fast corner entry speed was essential for fast corners, however it seems that lowering the entry speed and getting on the throttle quicker and maintaining the acceleration through out the corner will get you through quicker for many reasons, especially keeping the suspension in the proper operating area. Could I have figured this out on my own, maybe. Do I HAVE to know that to corner on the street at legal speeds, I doubt it's a necessity, but I still will argue it makes me a better rider. This is just one of many facts that helped me. If you are a freaking genius at understanding the physics of a bike just by your ass, then great for you. :jk: :poke: (sarcasm) :fencers:

I just look at "track" principals as a good thing to apply to the street. I feel we are all arguing about different end goals here. Perhaps we can all agree that watching a Keith Code video will not make you a GP racer and it certainly won't make you any WORSE than your current level. Seat time is needed for all skills, whether taught on a video, in person, or learned from the seat of your pants. Read, watch, learn. Let's not discourage the desire to learn from others, but let's all take from these videos, books and personal instruction what we feel benefits us. You can learn something from almost any experience, classroom or life.
 
Understand that the folks that claim they need no formal training are also the ones who have self-determined that they are accomplished riders. It's like rating your own performance. I could easily give myself a 10 if I wanted to.

Also, where are you getting this info about education level and insurance rates? I have never heard of it.
 
Had a friend who said all rider training was rubbish and he had been riding for 35yrs and there was nothing he could learn.But the bloke was danger to himself and any one he rode with ,though he could not see it.I am afaid he was involved in a accident,losing a leg and a arm and has only very small use of his other arm [after 2 years still can`t wipe his butt]and has to have full time carer`s .If he attended a rider training course he may of learn`t how to ride corners better.
 
Cobalt said:
Ok. I'm nothing more than an amateur with 36 years of experience. I suck at riding because I have no proper training. I especially suck because I've never watched or read a single Keith Code instructional. I cannot possibly ride a motorcycle! I have a ton of bad habits and no idea how to corner.

New bucket list:
1. Watch all of Keith Code's videos
2. Read all of Keith Code's books
3. Go to the school of Keith Code and ride that super useful and awesome instructional machine that gives you zero real-world experience.

If I complete these three amazing tasks, I'll beat fricken' Rossi, the Doc himself, on the track, win the Isle of Man TT and surely win over the hearts of all of you nay-sayers. :D :tup: :Rockon:

Norm, you with me? Let's get crackin' and earn some respect here.

Seriously though? When I took the MSF BRC with my wife so she could get her license.... here's how it went. In the class with about 15 people and two State Troopers as instructors.... They asked me why I was there. I told them I was there to support my wife and help when needed. When they ran the course, they always had me demonstrate the steps, not one of them, because I was what they called "an accomplished and smart rider." I did not let them down and demonstrated what they asked me to perfectly. In the end, I aced both the course and the written test to pull the only perfect out of the class. They even courted me for a week trying to get me to become an instructor. When they asked me who it was that I had gotten training from, I told them what I've told you all here. Me. Myself. My learned skills came from studying the physics of my own bikes, my own riding and when I was stuck, asking questions.

I'm still advocating seeking help with proper technique BUT, I'm still siding with seat time and experience is the only way I could ever become a skilled and accomplished rider. I cannot speak for anyone else but I can sure encourage riders to get in the seat and put miles on the bike because you're not going to learn a lot from a video or a book.

Disclaimer: Yes, I am being sarcastic in my posting and if you take me seriously, then you don't know me well enough. Please don't read into any of it that I'm making it personal. Trying to be funny with sarcasm often doesn't come across in a forum. ;)
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Oh, bragging aside,

While no one is denying experience but if you couple that with good training, it will accelerate your learning curve and make you a better and smarter rider. A person with good skills training and 5 years of experience can/will be a better rider than someone with 25 years of experience with no proper skills training.
 
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CrazyBiker said:
... no one is denying experience but if you couple that with good training, it will accelerate your learning curve and make you a better and smart rider.
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I saw this thread pop up this morning and have been thinking about it on and off all day. I couldn't have summed up my own thoughts any more succinctly than that.

Everyone learns in different ways, and I continue to look at motorcycling as no exception. I spent a few years riding, then had the motivation to go the the MSF ARC. I learned, and the seat time afterward was more enjoyable and (presumably) safer. Others may attend a rider training course and walk away saying, "I learned nothing of value." Don't judge someone else's disdain for structured training by your own experience.

Part of what I'm trying to say is that if you're honest with yourself, you'll never call yourself a "perfect" rider. Find your own optimal learning mechanism, whether it be seat time, reading books, watching videos, instructor-led training, or even just talking with other riders (whether they're more experienced than you or not). Use that knowledge to keep getting better. Just the fact that we're here discussing this indicates that we're all interested in learning, and by extension, becoming better riders.

Edit: That learning is no good without practice. Take the time to work on your skills on the bike, or else all the "knowledge" is just going to waste.
 
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Cobalt said:
Ok. I'm nothing more than an amateur with 36 years of experience. I suck at riding because I have no proper training. I especially suck because I've never watched or read a single Keith Code instructional. I cannot possibly ride a motorcycle! I have a ton of bad habits and no idea how to corner.

New bucket list:
1. Watch all of Keith Code's videos
2. Read all of Keith Code's books
3. Go to the school of Keith Code and ride that super useful and awesome instructional machine that gives you zero real-world experience.

If I complete these three amazing tasks, I'll beat fricken' Rossi, the Doc himself, on the track, win the Isle of Man TT and surely win over the hearts of all of you nay-sayers. :D :tup: :Rockon:

Norm, you with me? Let's get crackin' and earn some respect here.

Seriously though? When I took the MSF BRC with my wife so she could get her license.... here's how it went. In the class with about 15 people and two State Troopers as instructors.... They asked me why I was there. I told them I was there to support my wife and help when needed. When they ran the course, they always had me demonstrate the steps, not one of them, because I was what they called "an accomplished and smart rider." I did not let them down and demonstrated what they asked me to perfectly. In the end, I aced both the course and the written test to pull the only perfect out of the class. They even courted me for a week trying to get me to become an instructor. When they asked me who it was that I had gotten training from, I told them what I've told you all here. Me. Myself. My learned skills came from studying the physics of my own bikes, my own riding and when I was stuck, asking questions.

I'm still advocating seeking help with proper technique BUT, I'm still siding with seat time and experience is the only way I could ever become a skilled and accomplished rider. I cannot speak for anyone else but I can sure encourage riders to get in the seat and put miles on the bike because you're not going to learn a lot from a video or a book.

Disclaimer: Yes, I am being sarcastic in my posting and if you take me seriously, then you don't know me well enough. Please don't read into any of it that I'm making it personal. Trying to be funny with sarcasm often doesn't come across in a forum. ;)
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I agree with everything Cobalt said here except the 14 words about not learning from a video or a book. You can learn a lot from a video or a book, but it wont do you any good unless you make it habit with lots of seat time.

I've been riding since 1978. I'm not the best. I'm not the worst. I have learned a lot of stuff without taking a riding class. I learned a lot of that by reading. I learned a lot more by falling down. The more things you can learn through training, be it reading, video, school, osmosis, whatever, it beats the falling down technique. Personally, I think everyone should start on a small dirt bike because some falling down is almost inevitable. Having said that, any chance you get to learn something without falling down you should take.

I think a lot about my riding. I read everything I can find that doesn't cost a fortune. Here is where I will probably differ from a lot of people. When I read something, be it from Kieth Code, King Kenny, Malcolm Smith or some other legend, I evaluate it. I don't just say, "Kenny Roberts hung off so I must need to hang off". I rarely hang off the side of my bike riding a public road. It's just not the right thing to do. A lot of the instruction out there should be labeled TRACK ONLY, but its not so people don't know. On public roads, the curve in the road is there for some reason other than making the road a more exciting motorcycle ride. It's usually there to go around a mountain or something. It is almost impossible to see through a mountain so you should slow down until you can see around the mountain. If you are hanging off the inside as you go around the mountain you have to go much further around the outcropping before you get a clear line of sight down the road. I often ride around blind turns leaning off the wrong side of the bike because it allows me to see further down the road. I've never read or seen this technique in any training book and assume it isn't taught in any classes. For all I know, it is wrong, but I like it. Of course, some corners go around the inside of a gouge in a mountain and you have an excellent line of sight. I try to blister the tires in these corners.

I also slow down and stand up before cresting a rise in the road.
If I realize I'm into a corner to hot, I lay my big toe on the brake pedal and leave the throttle and front brake alone. I don't want to upset the chassis.
I ride with the balls of my feet on the pegs, not my arches.
The list is long and I'll bet it is wrong in places. I'm not too smart or too good to need training, I've just never had the time and the money at the same time. I would love to attend Cornerspin, Dirt Training for Road Riding, but it hasn't happened yet.

All the training in the world won't do you any good if you don't combine it with seat time but seat time by itself can't make you Malcolm Smith...........unless of course you actually are Malcolm Smith.:tup:
 
Adrenaline Junkie said:
I agree with everything Cobalt said here except the 14 words about not learning from a video or a book. You can learn a lot from a video or a book, but it wont do you any good unless you make it habit with lots of seat time.
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Well, I didn't say you would not learn, but that you'd not learn a lot... Yes, you will learn from a book or video but it's not a lot without actually doing it. Much of technique is learned via experience and not by instruction. I can try and tell another rider how to do something but he'll never "learn" that something without seat time. You simply cannot learn the feel of a counter-steer by reading about it and I've never seen a video that can explain the feel of it... you can only learn it by doing it.

Many aspects of riding are the same way... you can only learn it when doing it. Motorcycling is all about technique and without the all-important seat time, a rider is nothing more than a book-smart, experience-ignorant wannabe.

A lot of us are saying the same thing and we're quite divided on what comes first (like the proverbial chicken and egg) and I doubt that anyone will change my mind and I won't change yours, nor would I expect to. I can only state that for me, I do quite well for no formal instruction in my first 7 years of riding and only taking the BRC to obtain my official license. This isn't going to work for some people and does for others. It's not "right and wrong" but merely opinion. ;) Much like you sticking with yours (all of you) I'm sticking with mine. :tup: :rmwl:
 
All I know is my wife passed the MSF course with flying colors and still ran into a curb and crashed.

MSF is a beginning but by no means the end.

I've taken the MSF "Advanced" Course and found it lacking as neither of the courses deal with real world traffic. They are great to the bare bone basics; clutch, throttle, and brake modulation, but that is about it.

What my wife needs is more time riding, and hopefully no more crashes.

We go out again this weekend, pending rain.
 
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