MSF Advanced Course - A Review

Hellgate

Hellgate

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So I got a speeding ticket a few months ago and I was fortunate enough not to have been caught about a mile prior (if they caught me before I'd still be in jail), and as a result I was able to take riders school to get the ticket dismissed.

Bottomline up front; if you are an experienced rider save your money. If you are a newer rider this is a good course.

We spent the 6 hours no faster than 20 mph, I went 32 once and was told to mellow out. All of the drills we did were low speed, and in very tight confines; think parking garage. The drills are good for general coordination but they really don't fit into the real world of cars trying to kill you at 45+ mph.

I was told not to use two fingers to brake as I'd get better feel over the brakes if I used four. After I explained trail braking and the use of the throttle and front brake post-apex the instructor finally stopped. Again if a rider is new this is good stuff, if you have advanced skills, and are using them correctly, not so good.

The thing that blew me away most was the instructor telling the class to it takes four seconds of gradually increasing the brake pressure before you can apply maximum power. I didn't say a word, as I'm thinking about the track, going 150 mph and slowing applying the brakes. Oh well. :wtf:

The best part was I reconnected with a friend I'd lost touch with about 10 years ago. He has a BMW R1100RT and we had a great time catching up.

If you want to learn "advanced rider skills" sign up for a track day you'll million times more things.
 
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RE: Class

Quote: I was told not to use two fingers to brake as I'd get better feel over the brakes.
Quote: The thing that blew me away most was the instructor telling the class to it takes four seconds of gradually increasing the brake pressure before you can apply maximum power.

Boy Pete,,, Reading the above (again) about 'how to' use the brakes . . . .. if he is telling his class this . . . he is scaring me ! And, I am not afraid of much . . .:eyebrow:
 
The course you took.. was it called ARC (advanced rider course) or ERC (experienced rider course) or BRC2?

I teach BRC and I think it's an amazing way for beginners to get into motorcycling. ERC/BRC2 (same course.. just the name is changing) is basically the same as BRC, but it's done on your own bike, so it's definitely not "advanced". I haven't yet gotten certified to teach ARC nor have I taken the course, but I know trail braking and decreasing radius turns are discussed and practiced. You have to remember though that even ARC is really a course that was originally designed for military beginner riders to stop them from killing themselves... so yeah.. you're not going to learn what you learn on the track.

The 4-second brake application is total BS.. I guarantee you that's nowhere in the MSF materials. Your coach was sharing his own idea with the class. When we teach beginners we stress time after time that you can't GRAB the brake..
 
Erci said:
The course you took.. was it called ARC (advanced rider course) or ERC (experienced rider course) or BRC2?

I teach BRC and I think it's an amazing way for beginners to get into motorcycling. ERC/BRC2 (same course.. just the name is changing) is basically the same as BRC, but it's done on your own bike, so it's definitely not "advanced". I haven't yet gotten certified to teach ARC nor have I taken the course, but I know trail braking and decreasing radius turns are discussed and practiced. You have to remember though that even ARC is really a course that was originally designed for military beginner riders to stop them from killing themselves... so yeah.. you're not going to learn what you learn on the track.

The 4-second brake application is total BS.. I guarantee you that's nowhere in the MSF materials. Your coach was sharing his own idea with the class. When we teach beginners we stress time after time that you can't GRAB the brake..
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No trail braking was not mentioned and we were instructed to only brake while the bike was straight up. We were told that if we.were to brake in a corner we could crash. Nor was decreasing radius discussed.

He also told us that is we didn't four finger brake, and were to low side to.that side, our fingers would be trapped between the brake lever and the hand grip. Again I bit my tongue.

I know this isn't a track day and I was not expecting that, but I was expecting much more than I got.

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Oh, one final thing then I'll shut up.

The instructor walks up to my bike, points at the frame sliders and says, "Are those, some kind of foot rest things?" No, those are frame sliders. "What do they do?" If you dump your bike they help protect it. "Oh, never seen those before." As I look at his Harley and he has the largest case savers known to man-kind.... :shaking head:
 
Hellgate said:
Oh, one final thing then I'll shut up.

The instructor walks up to my bike, points at the frame sliders and says, "Are those, some kind of foot rest things?" No, those are frame sliders. "What do they do?" If you dump your bike they help protect it. "Oh, never seen those before." As I look at his Harley and he has the largest case savers known to man-kind.... :shaking head:
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Probably those came stock with the bike.. anyway who cares what a harley/farley guy has to say .. :flip:
 
Hellgate said:
Oh, one final thing then I'll shut up.

The instructor walks up to my bike, points at the frame sliders and says, "Are those, some kind of foot rest things?" No, those are frame sliders. "What do they do?" If you dump your bike they help protect it. "Oh, never seen those before." As I look at his Harley and he has the largest case savers known to man-kind.... :shaking head:
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Yeah.. large % of instructors are Harley riders and there's nothing wrong with that. The *wrong* part is that many of them have never experienced what a sport bike feels like and truly do believe that using all 4 fingers on the brake is the only safe way to ride *sigh*

You didn't answer my question about the actual class you took.. was it called ARC or ERC? What does it say on your completion card?
 
It says "Advanced Motorcycle Operator Training Course."

The back of the card says, "...is the same as the MSF Experienced RiderCourse + Skills Plus curriculum.

Maybe this is a one off for the State of Texas?

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Hellgate said:
It says "Advanced Motorcycle Operator Training Course."

The back of the card says, "...is the same as the MSF Experienced RiderCourse + Skills Plus curriculum.

Maybe this is a one off for the State of Texas?

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Hmm.. sounds like it was ERC.. which is basically beginner course, but on your own bike. Here's the list of exercises for ARC.. do you remember if this is what they had you do?

1. Basic Control
2. Quick Stops
3. Stopping Demonstration
4. Curve Adjustments
5. Cornering and Swerving
6. Multiple Curves
7. Decreasing Radius Curves
8. Gap Analysis and Safety Margin
 
Erci said:
Hmm.. sounds like it was ERC.. which is basically beginner course, but on your own bike. Here's the list of exercises for ARC.. do you remember if this is what they had you do?

1. Basic Control
2. Quick Stops
3. Stopping Demonstration
4. Curve Adjustments
5. Cornering and Swerving
6. Multiple Curves
7. Decreasing Radius Curves
8. Gap Analysis and Safety Margin
Click to expand...

That was pretty much the curriculum, plus the usual don't drink and drive lecture and C-CATS or something.
 
Being in the military myself, I have taken the ERC several times. Luckily the instructor knows me by now, so when I show up he kind of lets me do my own thing and then take the test. I totally understand why the instructors teach the way they do. It is because a large portion of students in these classes need it that way. For many people, they have only had their bike for a month or two. Sometimes even less. I have been in classes with people that constantly kill the bike, fail to complete a 20mph stop in less than 14 ft, and generally do not know how to take a curve at any speed. Teaching people on this level how to brake with two fingers would be irresponsible. I totally agree with your assessment though. Any civilian that has more than several months of riding experience should not take this course. It is too much money for too little instruction. Military personnel have to take the course every time they return from a deployment or move, or go more than one year without taking it. That sucks for us. Civilians stay away unless you are truly a beginner.
 
In PA the course is free. My wife took the basic course to get her license this year and I took the course with her to see what it is about. In the end she learned a lot and I was impressed on the materials covered and the instruction given. This is not a advanced riders course and should not be confused as such. It is designed to take a new born rider from womb to walking in the safest manner possible. We later took the "advanced" version offered in PA. What we learned about the "advanced" nomenclature is it only dealt with riding drills and skipped the classroom aspect of the basic's course.
 
Hellgate said:
I recently learned that in Texas, a track day counts as riders school for ticket dismissal! That means I can get a ticket once a year! ;)
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Hey, what company was that Advanced class? I ask because I won a free one as a door prize for Total Rider....wondering if it is worth my time since it's free? It sounds almost like the Basic class which was slow enough for an experience rider....but, if I can learn anything new it might be worth the time?

I don't need it for a ticket, yet :sinister: (Even though I've gotten 2 warnings recently...)
 
FZ1yb said:
Hey, what company was that Advanced class? I ask because I won a free one as a door prize for Total Rider....wondering if it is worth my time since it's free? It sounds almost like the Basic class which was slow enough for an experience rider....but, if I can learn anything new it might be worth the time?

I don't need it for a ticket, yet :sinister: (Even though I've gotten 2 warnings recently...)
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Austin Motor Academy, I think. I need to check my email. It was held at Mueller near the Austin Film Studios.

For the track day its thru Ride Smart.

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I took the BRC and really enjoyed it. I had never been on a bike, street or dirt, until I took the class. I was able to get a 100 on the written and riding tests, but even then I waited over a year to get my first street bike. I was not the typical student, though. I had read David Hough's Proficient Motorcycling, Motorcycling for Dummies and all of the MSF materials before taking the class.

Everything I hear about the ERC indicates that it would definitely be a waste of time after riding about 20,000 miles on the street and a few hundred on dirt and gravel.
 
I took the BRC (Basic RiderCourse) to get my initial endorsement. Having not "really" been on a motorcycle before, I found it hugely valuable.
About a year later, I took the ERC (Experienced RiderCourse) on my own bike. Found it boring and redundant. Wouldn't recommend it to anyone.
Last Spring, I took the ARC (Advanced RiderCourse) and found it much more enjoyable and a better learning experience. At that point, I'd had about 3 years (30K miles) of experience. I've recommended the class to many others and plan on attending the ARC with my brother-in-law in the Spring of 2012.

There are concepts and skills taught in the ARC that I hadn't run across before, and I thought the instruction was of high quality. The cost here in Michigan is $25, so it is well worth the day, IMO. I'm curious what it will be like with the FZ1 (I did all the other courses with my 750 Shadow). I'm also going to be considering the quality of the instructors, since I'll be taking the class in Ohio. Still MSF, but I'm sure that instructors vary quite a bit from location to location.

Most of the same concepts are "free" from other sources, but having the structured coaching can be valuable to help reinforce if you're "doing it right" -- assuming that he quality of instruction is up to par.

I think part of what it comes down to is how much you've gone out and learned on your own. My brother-in-law is mostly a commuter on his bike, and he will (probably) learn quite a bit. Another guy planning to take the class (moral support) is an excellent rider and will, in all likelihood, find it pretty mundane.
 
wjfawb0 said:
I took the BRC and really enjoyed it. I had never been on a bike, street or dirt, until I took the class. I was able to get a 100 on the written and riding tests, but even then I waited over a year to get my first street bike. I was not the typical student, though. I had read David Hough's Proficient Motorcycling, Motorcycling for Dummies and all of the MSF materials before taking the class.

Everything I hear about the ERC indicates that it would definitely be a waste of time after riding about 20,000 miles on the street and a few hundred on dirt and gravel.
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Just want to mention again that ERC and ARC are 2 different classes. ERC = BRC on your own bike (and only takes a day). ARC is more advanced. Here is the list of ARC exercises:

1. Basic Control
2. Quick Stops
3. Stopping Demonstration
4. Curve Adjustments
5. Cornering and Swerving
6. Multiple Curves
7. Decreasing Radius Curves
8. Gap Analysis and Safety Margin

Why not go look at the class in progress to judge for yourself? MSF graduates are always welcome to watch.
 
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