How does ECU Flash effect MPGs?

Kpd1031 said:
Jared, I love you man. Just kidding. But I do like the fact that you are not afraid to tell people what they don't want to hear. It doesn't surprise me that people get much different MPG's with Ivan's flash. Let's look at the facts.

Ivan developed his flash in house on his own FZ1. He says so himself on his website.

Yamaha has changed the base fuel maps over the years to sort out the poor fueling on earlier models. I believe they changed fueling in 2009 and 2011. Dates may be wrong.

Ivan uses PCV maps developed on his bike with his bikes base fueling. He admits to not changing any of the base fueling maps.

So. If Yamaha made the base fueling rich in some areas, and Ivan did the same. Well, there you have it. I bike that may be running very rich in some areas killing fuel economy. Here's where people usually chime in with "no way, my bike runs perfect". It probably does. But it can be running rich where performance is not much of an issue, like steady cruise.

These are very simple facts. However some will choose not to believe them and accept that 28 MPG's is fine. Others will say its impossible that Ivan's maps are not perfect. I say there's no way they can be. Unless he bought every ECU that there were known fueling changes, and developed different maps for each, which we all know he didn't or he would offer different maps for different years. Very expensive and time consuming. By the way Two Brothers, Dynojet and various ecu flash companies offer different maps for different year bikes. I wonder why?

I've brought this up in the past, however it always falls on deaf ears. I just can't believe no one has dynoed Ivan's flash to adjust the fueling. That was the whole purpose of him using the PCV maps. Jared, I believe you dynoed a bike that had an Ivan's flash and you stated the fueling was a bit off. No one believed you either. Oh well.
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I have stated a couple of times that I have indeed had my bike custom mapped after getting Ivan's flash.

I'm in Australian and our fuel is different here.

The problem is that I wasn't happy with the lower throttle areas of my custom map and have gone back to using Ivan's map, although I have modified it a little for better fuel economy.

Ivan really thinks outside the square when you have a look at what he has done with his PCV map at the lower throttle openings, it really is way different to any other map I have seen posted here or on the other forum and it just works.


Sent from my Nexus 5
 
OK, I just got back from one really boring ride.

I travelled a bit further than I said I would and I was surprised to see 201 klm on my clock with 2 bars still showing when I filled up again.

With my -1+2 gearing, Ivan's ECU flash, full Arrow system and tyres pumped up to 36F 42R, I rode for 201 kms keeping the revs below 5000 rpm with no fast acceleration.

The result: I returned 16.9 km/L or near enough to 40 US MPG.

Most of the klms were on the Hume Hwy travelling at 110 kph (68 mph) but I took a trip from Mittagong to Moss Vale (with 50 kph speed limits in parts and stopped a few times at traffic lights) and then headed back to the Hume Hwy.

It will be the first and last time I go for a ride like this as I was nearly falling asleep on the way home but it goes to show that if you really want to you can get half decent klms with Ivans's flash.

The bike was revving close to 500 revs higher than stock at 110 kph, so stock gearing would have returned a much better result.
 
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It sure looks that way.

I remember reading that Ivan said the bike uses less fuel if you use higher revs, when exiting a corner, than using lower revs and heaps of throttle.


Sent from my Nexus 5
 
2nd fill-up on the new bike. This is with all the performance mods except the flies which are still OEM with Ivan's flash. Most of this is between 4 and 6k RPMs with controlled roll-on/off during breakin.


Fuelly.com said:
Fuel-up Added
Best Tank!
Congratulations, this tank is your best so far at 31.7 MPG!

Details
MPG: 31.7
Miles: 126.9
Gallons: 4.00
Price: $3.50/Gallon
Total: $14.00
Click to expand...
 
Kpd1031 said:
Jared, I love you man. Just kidding. But I do like the fact that you are not afraid to tell people what they don't want to hear. It doesn't surprise me that people get much different MPG's with Ivan's flash. Let's look at the facts.

Ivan developed his flash in house on his own FZ1. He says so himself on his website.

Yamaha has changed the base fuel maps over the years to sort out the poor fueling on earlier models. I believe they changed fueling in 2009 and 2011. Dates may be wrong.

Ivan uses PCV maps developed on his bike with his bikes base fueling. He admits to not changing any of the base fueling maps.

So. If Yamaha made the base fueling rich in some areas, and Ivan did the same. Well, there you have it. I bike that may be running very rich in some areas killing fuel economy. Here's where people usually chime in with "no way, my bike runs perfect". It probably does. But it can be running rich where performance is not much of an issue, like steady cruise.

These are very simple facts. However some will choose not to believe them and accept that 28 MPG's is fine. Others will say its impossible that Ivan's maps are not perfect. I say there's no way they can be. Unless he bought every ECU that there were known fueling changes, and developed different maps for each, which we all know he didn't or he would offer different maps for different years. Very expensive and time consuming. By the way Two Brothers, Dynojet and various ecu flash companies offer different maps for different year bikes. I wonder why?

I've brought this up in the past, however it always falls on deaf ears. I just can't believe no one has dynoed Ivan's flash to adjust the fueling. That was the whole purpose of him using the PCV maps. Jared, I believe you dynoed a bike that had an Ivan's flash and you stated the fueling was a bit off. No one believed you either. Oh well.
Click to expand...

some times truth falls on deaf ears but i'm stubborn enough to keep shouting it. i have dyno graphs to back up my shouting though, people don't like being proven wrong. fz1 people are really really stubborn and somehow think they're bike is unique and requires magical tuning. i run into the same attitudes on the fz09 forums. people just dont know, dont care, know what they've been told and stick to that its a bible and won't even accept the thought of questioning that it may not be right or wrong. engine calibration is engine calibration, it's really very simple when you break it down and as long as you know the language it doesn't matter if it's in a car or bike, trike, quad, whatever, that tuner will get it as close to perfect every time. fz1's aint special, as far as tuning goes, they're just another engine to tune.

and yeah after running a customers fz1 in spokane, he picked up 4-7 hp or something like that in the midrange and low end if i recall, and the fueling was adjusted by over 50% in some places. however, even though the customer admitted in private messaging and to nels, that the fueling he was given wasnt very good and that nels fueling was way better afterwards, he never posted it publicly or admitted the possibility that it coulda been a problem before. people will be people, whatever. i have his before and after graphs, i may just post em later however i did not want to turn this into that. a product was developed that delivers the same performance, people didnt wanna hear it, or wanna believe the dyno graphs that proved it, so, their loss, whatever.

Dustin said:
The fact the carbureted first gen gets much, much better fuel economy without a huge sacrifice in power says a lot about the state of the fuelling on the second gen. I would imagine there is room for improvement on the AFR as Jared says
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very true.

people don't understand even stock bikes, bone stock bikes, need a tune, because off the showroom floor they're garbage, especially in the USA with its horrific emissions regulations which MURDER the performance of the bikes.

FZ1inNH said:
2nd fill-up on the new bike. This is with all the performance mods except the flies which are still OEM with Ivan's flash. Most of this is between 4 and 6k RPMs with controlled roll-on/off during breakin.
Click to expand...

i'd highly recommend seeing a dyno tuner, just to get a baseline done, they usually cost $50 ish, gives you hp/tq/air fuel ratio. i just don't know how you could be getting such low mpg if you have proper fueling.
 
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I'm sorry jared p but you lost me when you said you get 37-38 US mpg at track days.
While nels flash may be good, you ruin it by claiming unrealistic fuel consumption figures.
At a track day the bike is generally running at high revs (it is when I'm doing track days) and these bikes drink fuel once you get them up over 7K rpm.


Sent from my Nexus 5
 
ballmead said:
I'm sorry jared p but you lost me when you said you get 37-38 US mpg at track days.
While nels flash may be good, you ruin it by claiming unrealistic fuel consumption figures.
At a track day the bike is generally running at high revs (it is when I'm doing track days) and these bikes drink fuel once you get them up over 7K rpm.


Sent from my Nexus 5
Click to expand...

i have another track day Thursday, i'll reset the tripmeter and see what it says and track my fuel consumption. keep in mind instructing in beginner/intermediate means i'm not always at high revs, that may be what balances out to the higher mpg's. however compared to the 10,501 mile trip i complete and got 38-42 almost every tank, regardless of going 60 or 90 the whole tank, is a better example of what proper fueling looks like, most people dont use fz1's as dedicated track bikes
 
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ballmead said:
I'm sorry jared p but you lost me when you said you get 37-38 US mpg at track days.
While nels flash may be good, you ruin it by claiming unrealistic fuel consumption figures.
At a track day the bike is generally running at high revs (it is when I'm doing track days) and these bikes drink fuel once you get them up over 7K rpm.
Click to expand...

I never calculated my track day MPG but I guess about 25, at a track day you use WOT a lot and run for maximum performance so the bike uses huge quantities of fuel because it is always in the power band. That said my 2006 gets 38-42 MPG in summer, when temperatures are low and I do not reconnect the O2 sensor I get ~ 35 MPG. Even in very spirited riding the bike does not drop below 35 MPG. However I usually never use WOT on the street so I have no chicken strips and drag the knee some times. I guess MPG depend a lot on riding habits and not everyone that is fast has bad MPG and not everyone who is slow has good MPG. BTW my ODO is spot on (~ 1% difference) while my speedo is off. I did not change gearing or rear tire size. These values are obtained by 40k miles riding so I am very confident they are accurate. Getting <30 MPG seems to be a fueling issue or you ride on the track or all the time WOT which is usually not needed if you do not slow too much down in corners.
 
ballmead said:
I'm sorry jared p but you lost me when you said you get 37-38 US mpg at track days.
While nels flash may be good, you ruin it by claiming unrealistic fuel consumption figures.
At a track day the bike is generally running at high revs (it is when I'm doing track days) and these bikes drink fuel once you get them up over 7K rpm.


Sent from my Nexus 5
Click to expand...

i do have a question for you, since you're on another continent, things are different for you down there, i dunno about the gas you guys get plus the temp differences etc can play into it. i have a buddy who races down there and has mentioned similar issues compared to when he comes up here. he has race bikes stored up here and comes up for track days a few weeks every year. what kinda temps is your bike running at the track? he has mentioned it's difficult to keep them under 210F, this sorta thing can hurt mpg as well since it's never down at optimal temps. i don't know this for sure, this is just what a friend has told me who rides here and there
 
jared p said:
i do have a question for you, since you're on another continent, things are different for you down there, i dunno about the gas you guys get plus the temp differences etc can play into it. i have a buddy who races down there and has mentioned similar issues compared to when he comes up here. he has race bikes stored up here and comes up for track days a few weeks every year. what kinda temps is your bike running at the track? he has mentioned it's difficult to keep them under 210F, this sorta thing can hurt mpg as well since it's never down at optimal temps. i don't know this for sure, this is just what a friend has told me who rides here and there
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Our fuel has a much higher levels of sulphur compared to Europe, so much so that some European car manufacturers can't use their most efficient engines due to the high level of sulphur which causes higher fuel usage.

I'm not too sure what the sulfur levels are in US fuel but the quality is reported to be better than ours.

My bike runs much cooler due to Ivan's flash and it's noticeably cooler on hot days, no more hot bum.
 
ballmead said:
Our fuel has a much higher levels of sulphur compared to Europe, so much so that some European car manufacturers can't use their most efficient engines due to the high level of sulphur which causes higher fuel usage.

I'm not too sure what the sulfur levels are in US fuel but the quality is reported to be better than ours.

My bike runs much cooler due to Ivan's flash and it's noticeably cooler on hot days, no more hot bum.
Click to expand...

I work for an energy company. Since 2004, we are at what is called Tier 2 for gasoline. In 2004 only, gas sulfur content could not exceed 350 ppm. Starting 2005, this was lowered to 300 ppm. From 2017 through 2025, we are moving to Tier 3 where gasoline will be required to meet (by 2025) a cap of 10 ppm. (REF: Gasoline Sulfur Program | Fuels and Fuel Additives | US EPA)

John, this will surprise you but Australia has even stricter standards for sulfur content as evidenced by this page from your government site: Fuel Quality in Australia - Petrol Fuel Quality Standard Currently, gasoline down under is 150 ppm for all grades. We will not exceed that for at least another 3 years. ;)
 
ballmead said:
Our fuel has a much higher levels of sulphur compared to Europe, so much so that some European car manufacturers can't use their most efficient engines due to the high level of sulphur which causes higher fuel usage.

I'm not too sure what the sulfur levels are in US fuel but the quality is reported to be better than ours.

My bike runs much cooler due to Ivan's flash and it's noticeably cooler on hot days, no more hot bum.
Click to expand...

it took me a minute to realize we may not be comparing apples to apples

FZ1inNH said:
I work for an energy company. Since 2004, we are at what is called Tier 2 for gasoline. In 2004 only, gas sulfur content could not exceed 350 ppm. Starting 2005, this was lowered to 300 ppm. From 2017 through 2025, we are moving to Tier 3 where gasoline will be required to meet (by 2025) a cap of 10 ppm. (REF: Gasoline Sulfur Program | Fuels and Fuel Additives | US EPA)

John, this will surprise you but Australia has even stricter standards for sulfur content as evidenced by this page from your government site: Fuel Quality in Australia - Petrol Fuel Quality Standard Currently, gasoline down under is 150 ppm for all grades. We will not exceed that for at least another 3 years. ;)
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now thats interesting.
 
Our regular fuels have a lower octane rating too I believe. Regular is something like 89 - 91, premium 94 - 95 and high is 98 (varies depending on which company you buy from). When I bought my Bike the dealer said to only use regular (89-91). We also have a ethanol blends which make the matter worse (these must be labeled at the bowser by law with the % ethanol). Leaded fuels have been banned for years.
 
FZ1inNH said:
I work for an energy company. Since 2004, we are at what is called Tier 2 for gasoline. In 2004 only, gas sulfur content could not exceed 350 ppm. Starting 2005, this was lowered to 300 ppm. From 2017 through 2025, we are moving to Tier 3 where gasoline will be required to meet (by 2025) a cap of 10 ppm. (REF: Gasoline Sulfur Program | Fuels and Fuel Additives | US EPA)

John, this will surprise you but Australia has even stricter standards for sulfur content as evidenced by this page from your government site: Fuel Quality in Australia - Petrol Fuel Quality Standard Currently, gasoline down under is 150 ppm for all grades. We will not exceed that for at least another 3 years. ;)
Click to expand...

Reading more about this your current PPM sulpur content of gasoline is 30 PPM and will get better from 2017 being reduced to 10 PPM sulpur content, way better than our current standards

EPA Looking to Lower Sulfur Levels in Gasoline - Motor Trend

Tier 2 is now in effect as per your EPA website (see second paragraph):

Gasoline Fuels | Fuels & Fuel Additives | Transportation & Air Quality | US EPA
 
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Dicko said:
Our regular fuels have a lower octane rating too I believe. Regular is something like 89 - 91, premium 94 - 95 and high is 98 (varies depending on which company you buy from). When I bought my Bike the dealer said to only use regular (89-91). We also have a ethanol blends which make the matter worse (these must be labeled at the bowser by law with the % ethanol). Leaded fuels have been banned for years.
Click to expand...

Australia uses a different method of labeling octane than the USA and Canada. Here we use a system called AKI whereas you guys use the RON method.

Most of the gas stations around here offer 87 octane as 'regular'; areas at high elevation such as Colorado or Utah will offer 85 octane instead. In Australia, Europe and generally everywhere else, that 'regular' will be as you stated, 89-91.
 
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