T84A
Well-Known Member
Practice does not make perfect. Practice makes permanent. Practice is far different from "seat time."
Seat Time
- Thread starter Norm
- Start date
FZ1inTX
Adminstrator
Neither does digesting instruction without ever sitting on the seat. I really don't see an issue with practice makes perfect if you are practicing proper technique. I mean, I do WANT proper technique to be permanent...
I don't think many would have issues with that philosophy. :rmwl:
CrazyBiker
Wizard
Seat Time is not the only thing! Repeatedly crashing without learning from it for 100k miles doesn't make you a better rider. Proper training and seat time go hand in hand not either or.
Dustin
Moderator
Yes, that's exactly what I've been saying! My opinion is that to be a skilled rider, one must first have knowledge & understanding and then apply through repetition (seat time).
A doctor can't practice medicine without years and years of knowledge and theory. You have to understand how the body works before you ever touch a patient, right?
CrazyBiker
Wizard
NO (absurd analogy)
BUT
Seat Time doesn't mean anything without Proper Skills and Training, PERIOD
Can you imagine becoming a surgeon without ever having held a scalpel?
BUT
Seat Time doesn't mean anything without Proper Skills and Training, PERIOD
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captainmorgan
Member
I have actually been thinking on this subject a lot lately. I am a fairly new rider (15k miles), and have commuted 60 miles 3-5 days a week, 30 highway and 30 backroads and twisties, for the last two years. I have done extensive reading on form and technique and spent lots of time talking to riders more skilled than I am. I have seen drastic improvement in my riding in very little time thanks to good instruction and proper theoretical understanding of how to take turns and keep the shiny side up. I don't think that anyone will argue with this: seat time and proper understanding are both needed in order to make a good rider. Lacking one or the other makes riding risky. Also, proper understanding cannot occur without time spent riding.
I have been in some pretty gnarly situations on the bike and can confidently say that without the advantage of both seat time and understanding, I would have crashed several times.
Seat time without understanding makes for an overconfident numbskull.
Understanding without seat time can also be dangerous, as a newer rider is more likely to panic and less likely to be able to properly apply their understanding.
I'm glad to be improving with both
I have been in some pretty gnarly situations on the bike and can confidently say that without the advantage of both seat time and understanding, I would have crashed several times.
Seat time without understanding makes for an overconfident numbskull.
Understanding without seat time can also be dangerous, as a newer rider is more likely to panic and less likely to be able to properly apply their understanding.
I'm glad to be improving with both
FZ1inTX
Adminstrator
Define "proper" because I had no "proper" training when I was 11 and got my first two wheels. I learned with seat time and it came with trial and error. Crash!?!? "Well, that's what I'll not to do the next time." I did not actually take a course until I was 18 yrs old... 7 years and 4 motorcycles later. Still here! No broken bones! So that blows your useless "proper training" right out of the water, doesn't it? PERIOD!
So, maybe some of you needed "proper" training. Others figured it out with common sense and when things did not work out, tried it differently. When I wanted to know how to do things more efficiently, I researched and asked questions, got my answers and tried these. If they worked, I practiced it until it became (permanently) perfect.
Norm
Wizard
Sure Keith
Norm
Wizard
Trade your Keith Code book in for a college book. It's a better use of your money.
Dustin
Moderator
Shame this thread took such a dive so fast, it went from interesting to worthless in a few posts
Norm
Wizard
If I recall correctly David Hough had no "proper" training and learned most of what he knew on his own. As Eric said, if you think you need 20 books and 18 classes to be safe on a bike there's nothing wrong with that. But a lot of us learned a ton in the saddle. Dustin, I hope we can meet so you can show me all the great things you learned. Myself, I majored in physics in college and to my knowledge counter steer, which we all know works, has not been adequately explained, despite all the youtube wannabe physicists. And by the way, driving is not a steer here, a steer there, a pedal here and a pedal here. Bad drivers kill themselves and others. Bad motorcyclists kill themselves. My point is that there is a double standard for cars and motorcycles and there is absolutely no reason for this. Ask any truck driver. They'll tell you its the car drivers that scare them and from their point of you too few people are good drivers.
Norm
Wizard
Shame this thread took such a dive so fast, it went from interesting to worthless in a few posts
Just because we don't agree with you doesn't mean the thread took a dive.
Dustin
Moderator
It's not that. It's come to sarcasm and snide remarks rather than an open discussion like before
I don't care if someone agrees with me, the whole point of a forum is for open discussion. I was enjoying the different opinions here until all the poop flinging started
I can only share my experience and learn from others
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CrazyBiker
Wizard
Sorry to say Eric, but that deduction is just off the mark. Learning from mistakes is what an average person does but learning from other's mistakes and proper training is what a smart person does. It is not hard to acquire and absorb proper skills through training and practice.
Just take the Total Control Riding course (which is not expensive like CSS or YCRS) and all that so called common sense that we think we have gained through experience will get thrown out of the window. Trust me on this. With proper training your margin for error gets expanded and you have room to correct your mistakes - it is called inflating the safety cushion.
Your last two sentences is what comprises of proper training too. So there is the answer to your question - what proper training and seat time means.
BDazzler
Wizard
I'm going to have to agree more with Dustin on this. I learned from 'seat time' as a kid on a dirt bike. At low speed on soft ground, I was able to 'trial and error' some good riding in the end. This worked for general riding, using the clutch, individual brakes, leaning to turn. I feel I got to an acceptable level. When I transfer that to the FZ1 on the street, I find it lacking. I've only had 2 years (11000 miles) on the FZ1, but street riding is different on a pure street bike. I bought the "A Twist of the Wrist II" and I feel it really helped me understand how to better use the bike. I don't know if Keith is a god or anything, but I found his tips and instruction to be very helpful to advance my ability to ride. That being said, I haven't had enough 'seat time' to really learn all that the way I need to, but I don't feel I would have advanced at all with out the instruction. The instruction gave me the ability to advance and now it's up to me to put in the 'seat time' to properly implement what was taught. :fencers:
I guess I would say the instruction with out seat time is almost worthless, but seat time with out instruction will get you to a certain plateau of acceptability. I'm sure there are exceptions on both sides of this, but I believe this is the "norm". (hehehe) :stirpot: If you just want a leisurely ride, seat time may be enough. If you want to push the speed and hit corners hard, I feel proper instruction and information are necessary. I'm sure Moto GP riders didn't get everything from just seat time, but then again, they will have the most 'natural' ability, so it may just be some people's brains will have a better innate understanding of the physics that goes with motorcycling.
I'm not so sure we aren't all saying about the same thing, just differences on emphasis. I doubt anyone would discount that being the best rider you can be requires both instruction and seat time. Let's not fall into the false dichotomy of we must choose only one or the other. We can all have both. :nerd:
I guess I would say the instruction with out seat time is almost worthless, but seat time with out instruction will get you to a certain plateau of acceptability. I'm sure there are exceptions on both sides of this, but I believe this is the "norm". (hehehe) :stirpot: If you just want a leisurely ride, seat time may be enough. If you want to push the speed and hit corners hard, I feel proper instruction and information are necessary. I'm sure Moto GP riders didn't get everything from just seat time, but then again, they will have the most 'natural' ability, so it may just be some people's brains will have a better innate understanding of the physics that goes with motorcycling.
I'm not so sure we aren't all saying about the same thing, just differences on emphasis. I doubt anyone would discount that being the best rider you can be requires both instruction and seat time. Let's not fall into the false dichotomy of we must choose only one or the other. We can all have both. :nerd:
Lonney
Wizard
what about luck
This is a very intersting topic but i havent heard anybody mention luck! Ive been riding dirt bikes for fourty years and and street bikes for 25 All training helps wether its books ,training,or seat time it doesnt matter if you dont have luck on your side you dont have to much Training doesnt help with the old lady plowing you from behind while sittin at a red light!ANYONE DISAGREE
This is a very intersting topic but i havent heard anybody mention luck! Ive been riding dirt bikes for fourty years and and street bikes for 25 All training helps wether its books ,training,or seat time it doesnt matter if you dont have luck on your side you dont have to much Training doesnt help with the old lady plowing you from behind while sittin at a red light!ANYONE DISAGREE
Norm
Wizard
Then show me the sheepskin from that Ivy League Institution big guy. Groupies and higher education are mutually exclusive in my experience.
Norm
Wizard
BTW, will someone please tell me what all these "BAD HABITS" are that everyone but Keith Code and T84A seem to have. Please be specific. I'm curious to know how against all odds so many of us have survived with these bad habits.
Hellgate
Wizard
BDazzler
Wizard
Hellgate, I love your Rebel gang quote about at least doing the speed limit, but come on, the Rebel 250 has some extreme limitations. Cut them some slack!
Keith Code on a Rebel? :doh2::stirpot:
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