Seat Time

Norm

Norm

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Seat time: There is no Substitute

The best advice regarding motorcycling I ever received was from a mechanic at my Yamaha dealer. He said: “Ride Norm ride. Stop reading and ride. You want to be a good rider? Then ride.” I love it. I trusted him to service my bike. So why shouldn’t I trust his philosophy? Simple, yet profound. There have been many cases of people faking their credentials and doing complex jobs. Fake doctors, lawyers, and pilots. The amazing thing is a lot of these people were pretty good. Why? They didn’t have all the rhetoric and useless theory that goes along with training for these jobs. They just DID the job…over and over again and usually with such passion and will to succeed at convincing others that they emulated the real thing to a scary T.

Yea I know the theory and rhetoric isn’t really useless. But so few of us remember to reincorporate it once the rubber hits the road that it may as well be useless. Faking it till you’re making it. It can be done. I recommend 10,000 miles as the point at which you are an official rider. Ideally it should be done in a span of less than 3 years with two years or less being ideal. The 10,000 miles should break down as follows:

1) 5000 highway miles: The highway will give you many looks. High winds some days, headwinds, tail winds, quartering winds, winds that come off of semis, car haulers and other vehicles. The highway on a bike, for some reason, reminds me of the ocean on a boat. Every time out feels a little different. You also must master countersteer to be safe on the highway.
2) 3000 miles on twisties. It doesn’t have to be the tail of the dragon. With the exception of Florida everyone knows where they can find some twisties within a half hour of their home. If you want to make sure you’re ready for the big times give the Saw Mill Parkway a try. It’s a fast road with twisties galore and nice banks in the turns but a guardrail on one side and brazen deer on the other leaves no room for error. A if that wasn’t enough, every New Yorker with a fast car does 80 or more on that road because hiding spots for cops are limited and it really tests what their car is capable of doing. Use extreme caution on this road!
3) Find the busiest grocery store and go up and down the isles while cars pull out in front of you, old people walk right in front of you, cars stop short unpredictably (like while you’re in a turn), and little kids escape the clutches of their parents in an attempt to die under your front tire.
4) Find the biggest incline you can and practice stopping and starting on the incline. On occasion down hill can be tricky too. I once stalled out on a sharp decline thinking I had more speed from the road than I did and let the clutch out too fast.
5) Get the mail at the end of your driveway with the bike. Sounds stupid right? Try it without getting off your bike.
6) Pillion: You are endangering your own life on a bike. Don’t take a pillion till you have mastered riding yourself. When you do you’ll see it’s twice as hard as riding yourself. A lot of accomplished riders I know refuse to take a pillion mostly because they do not want to put anyone else in harm’s way. Some of them are fine with their spouse riding on their own, for example, but they just don’t want to be responsible for two lives, or wipe out a child’s set of parents in one fell swoop. Their reasoning is sound and I find it hard to argue against their decision. Remember that a pillion entrusting their life to you is a tremendous honor and sign of respect. Don’t screw it up by showing off or doing anything that you haven’t done a hundred times yourself.
7) Ride through a busy city at rush hour. I don’t think this one needs too much explanation but what it really teaches you, besides excellent clutch control and slow speed prowess is to claim your space and protect this space as if you were in a car. Attitude is important here. Rush hour traffic can smell fear and any sign of weakness. Drivers know you’re crazy cause you’re on a bike in rush hour. Now just act the part. If you really want to fine tune your attitude try it on a Honda Helix. It’s hard to look tough on a Helix but it’s pretty easy to look crazy; and everyone’s afraid of a crazy person because you just never know what he’s going to do next since he appears to have no regard for his life or yours. Stare down a meek looking driver and then spit on the ground. Then sing a verse from the group “War” and start laughing. “Cisco kid was a friend of mine.” Then let out a big Dr. Evil laugh! Actually letting out anything after that should work.

Well I think that about does it. Bikes weren’t made to be coat hangers or storage shelving for garage supplies. Stay thirsty for riding my friends.

Disclaimer: I’m not a motorcycle expert but I was able to get the gas station air pump to fill my tires today. I mean seriously, what idiot designed the valves on motorcycles to be impenetrable to air pumps.
 
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No twisties with in 30 minutes OKC...

Now go east of Tulsa to AR, WOW! That's about 4 hours from what I understand.

But you are correct, get out and RIDE!
 
I agree with you 100 percent. This goes for most things in life, experience >a degree in my opinion. You can only learn so much from a book or classroom.

I am not sure how many miles I rode my various dirt bikes as a teenager, but I have done nearly 10k on my FZ since i bought it over a year ago, though mostly on the highway. My bike is a means to get to work, the twisties are less of a thing for me.
 
Partly agree but there is nothing good instruction can replace. Bad habits once picked up stay on for life unless corrected through proper instruction. Apparently some bad habits get picked through intruction as well - be it the MSF or one of your friends.
 
practicing bad techniques over and over, won't make them good techniques. First learn the propper skills then get lots of seat time practicing those skills.

On a related note I know a mechanic who will pull a drive chain tight as a banjo string. When questioned about destroying output shaft bearings he replied "I've been doing this for 20 years" I hated to tell him he'd been doing it wrong for twenty years.

Just because you've been riding for 20 years dosen't mean you've been riding well for twenty years.
 
I'll say the two go hand in hand...

You really need to understand, through books, videos, training courses, the physics/reasoning of how the bike works... but until you actually feel it and experience it, it won't make a lot of sense....

Point in case.. look at the professional stunters/racers... they drift that rear by nature, you can teach someone that it works, but until you feel comfortable with it through experience, you'll react wrong... how many people hit a small patch of gravel that could easily just be ridden though, but they freak out and low side the bike? If you know what to expect, let the bike work it's magic, you stand a better chance of making it through the gravel, it becomes second nature through experience, but someone (books, videos, schools) has to tell you it can be done...
 
For some reason bikers tend to judge other biker's riding rather harshly. Consider this: How many expert drivers do you know? If you're like me you believe you're the best driver you know, outside of Nascar and Formula 1. Or maybe you know 1 driver you think is better than you. If you're like me you only really trust a couple of people to drive you around. Anyone else driving and you're white knuckled the whole time. Maybe you think your wife drives terribly. But if you say anything you won't be sleeping in the big bed.

People also believe the MSF instructors hold the key to safe riding. They talk of the instructors almost reverently. I've met a lot of instructors whose only qualification is they are a member of the good ole boy's club. I wouldn't consider them scholarly. They're not well read, pass along dated information that contradicts national highway statistics, and are dogmatic, close minded to student's point of view, and know one way to do things. In an academic environment the students teach the teachers too. I'm not bashing MSF instructors. I'm asking you to demote them from demigods to human.

When I was learning to drive my father used to say "there's 2 ways to drive: the way you drive before you get your license and the way you drive after your license." If I drove the way I learned before my license in New York City I'd be eaten up alive.

I maintain that if someone has been doing the "wrong thing" for 20 years on a bike and is still alive and riding then they've got something to teach the rest of us.
 
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T84A said:
Sorry, but I disagree.

YouTube
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Now I can see it. Keith Code is a perfect case in point. He has the Keith Code bike. This bike is the biggest BS in motorcycling. He has welded the steering wheel to show you that you can't stay up without using the steering wheel. This bike has been torn apart in every discussion group that has wasted their time talking about it. You can ride with no hands right? That's because the wheel goes back and forth every time you lean. Turning the wheel is locked into leaning. You do one and the other one follows. You don't need to move the steering wheel. It'll turn itself. If you lock up the steering wheel you have tampered with the physics of 2 wheeled riding. It doesn't prove you need to steer or counter steer. It proves the front wheel must be free to move left and right for a bicycle or bike to stay up. Keith Code is an icon of dated and dogmatic motorcycling. If he was a professor he'd be stripped of his title for the Keith Code Bike alone.
 
Norm said:
I maintain that if someone has been doing the "wrong thing" for 20 years on a bike and is still alive and riding then they've got something to teach the rest of us.
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I disagree. How long you've been riding is completely irrelevant. Maybe those people only ride 100 miles a year, to the pub and back. Maybe they've been riding 20 years and 19 of those years they've 'had to lay 'er down' on a regular basis. Maybe they've logged 100,000 miles of successful riding but can't even do a u-turn without dropping their feet on the ground.

I spent my first couple years doing the 'wrong thing' on two wheels. Although I did take an excellent course, they mainly taught survival skills but not the physics of two wheels and the complex things one has to understand in order to 'go fast'.

I got a lot of seat time in my first couple years, as all new riders do. Looking back, I'd say all that seat time really only served to make me braver, not better. It wasn't until I started learning the theory through books & videos that I really started making improvements. Armed with knowledge & understanding, I was able to go out and use that seat time effectively and the improvements followed hard & fast.

My riding today is light years better than my riding even a year ago. I now have a better understanding what the bike below me is doing when I enter a turn, how to position myself, how to use the throttle to maximise the suspension's range, etc, etc, etc. Most importantly, I understand what to do when I make a mistake and how to fix it so it doesn't happen next time.

My seat time is now very useful. :)
 
I also completely disagree.

Bad habits reinforced through repetition and experience are still bad habits. If you are still alive and healthy, then you were just plain lucky. That is not the general case and there are few such people still alive and in one piece. Better start counting your lives. You never know when those bad habits will put you down for good.

Reiterating, bad habits get picked over time, either due to lack of instruction, misleading by MSF instructors or your riding friends.
 
Then what do you feel about all the "bad habits" car drivers have, who have never taken a course after age 16 and don't know a thing about physics? Should we take all their keys away because we know so much more than them?
 
Norm said:
Then what do you feel about all the "bad habits" car drivers have, who have never taken a course after age 16 and don't know a thing about physics? Should we take all their keys away because we know so much more than them?
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No, we should take away thier keys because they are bad drivers.... :shine:


Bad Habits aside, someone with experience is still going to have more...... you guessed it, experience than a first time rider.

I started in the dirt, and learning how to deal with a locked up rear end and fall a lot on a surface that does not bite as hard as Asphalt certainly gave me skills as a first time street rider that I would not have had if I just went directly from not riding to riding.
 
Norm said:
Then what do you feel about all the "bad habits" car drivers have, who have never taken a course after age 16 and don't know a thing about physics? Should we take all their keys away because we know so much more than them?
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But this isn't about car drivers, nor is it about taking people's licenses away. Your thread is about motorcycles, seat time and how invaluable it is. That's very true. Some of us, however, feel that it's not so black & white. I believe education must go hand in hand with seat time and you can never be a strong rider without incorporating the two.

This is exacerbated when you introduce an old driver to a new motorcycle. The bad habits people get while driving a car can be fatal on a motorcycle. Driving a car is the easiest, most brainless thing in the world and it's very easy to be complacent. Stabbing the gas, stabbing the brakes, sudden steering inputs, lack of attention, lack of spacial awareness... Put those habits on a motorcycle and it will almost certainly end badly.
 
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Norm said:
Now I can see it. Keith Code is a perfect case in point. He has the Keith Code bike. This bike is the biggest BS in motorcycling. He has welded the steering wheel to show you that you can't stay up without using the steering wheel. This bike has been torn apart in every discussion group that has wasted their time talking about it. You can ride with no hands right? That's because the wheel goes back and forth every time you lean. Turning the wheel is locked into leaning. You do one and the other one follows. You don't need to move the steering wheel. It'll turn itself. If you lock up the steering wheel you have tampered with the physics of 2 wheeled riding. It doesn't prove you need to steer or counter steer. It proves the front wheel must be free to move left and right for a bicycle or bike to stay up. Keith Code is an icon of dated and dogmatic motorcycling. If he was a professor he'd be stripped of his title for the Keith Code Bike alone.
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You're nuts. Keith Code is the standard. I have nothing more to add.
 
Personally, I'd have to *mostly* agree with Norm. You can sit and watch videos, read books, listen to live instruction and this will give you a ton of valuable information. But none of that information is useful until you personally experience it, hence Seat Time. So, there is no substitute BUT, good instruction on proper technique will certainly, and vastly, improve your seat-time experience.

This is why I'd encourage people to take the BRC and Advanced courses every few years. Over time, we develop bad habits and taking these as a refresher will put a rider back on track, so to speak.

No amount of instruction off the bike can replace time in the seat though. Personal experience is a must in almost every aspect of what we desire to learn. Can you imagine becoming a surgeon without ever having held a scalpel? ;)
 
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