Risk vs. Skill

Ssky0078

Ssky0078

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When I was at the Advanced Rider Course a few months ago they presented information on a concept of Risk vs Skill assessment. If your skill is always greater than your risk then your overall odds for disaster (terrible paraphrasing ) will be in your favor. If your risk exceeds your skill then the chance for disaster increases to become more likely.

Guys, I need some help chilling out. I've gotten more and more comfortable on the bike, my skills have developed nicely in my opinion. I'm no motoGP rider but I keep catching myself taking more and more risk on the bike. I keep pulling it off so either I'm very lucky or the skill is improving but not in the best way possible. I probably should go to the track, and there is the last track day of the season here next weekend, but it's currently a money situation holding me back. Any thoughts, help, advice is appreciated (other than calling me an idiot because I do that enough on my own after I slow back down).
 
For me, I gain skill more easily by minimising risk, so to speak. Not by going slowly but by riding fast within my comfort zone, let's say 8/10ths. You're still trying to push the pace but you're not 'trying to go fast', if that makes sense.

I think by riding on a tightrope, you're not allowing yourself to improve your skills because you're just focused on not crashing. Your caveman instincts overpower your riding ability and all the bad habits come out. Riding a motorcycle is very counter-intuitive to our natural instinct and when you are forcing yourself into that 'fight or flight' frame of mind, you're not going to be able to learn anything.

I wish I was more eloquent right now, maybe it would make more sense.
 
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Dustin said:
For me, I gain skill more easily by minimising risk, so to speak. Not by going slowly but by riding fast within my comfort zone, let's say 8/10ths. You're still trying to push the pace but you're not 'trying to go fast', if that makes sense.

I think by riding on a tightrope, you're not allowing yourself to improve your skills because you're just focused on not crashing. Your caveman instincts overpower your riding ability and all the bad habits come out. Riding a motorcycle is very counter-intuitive to our natural instinct and when you are forcing yourself into that 'fight or flight' frame of mind, you're not going to be able to learn anything.

I wish I was more eloquent right now, maybe it would make more sense.
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I follow you and would say that I feel like I'm at that 8/10ths range, maybe 9/10ths at the most. I guess that's the thing is the way I'm riding is not producing those adrenaline rush - caveman instincts to kick in. But, I mean I caught myself the other day going double the posted speed limit between/through traffic because I wanted to get to the front of the pack and queued up first at the next light. I felt like I just accomplished something, but my rational brain kicked in and said that was not necessary (it wasn't).

I'll think more on The Pace, I read that about a month ago, maybe I need to read again
 
Ssky0078 said:
When I was at the Advanced Rider Course a few months ago they presented information on a concept of Risk vs Skill assessment. If your skill is always greater than your risk then your overall odds for disaster (terrible paraphrasing ) will be in your favor. If your risk exceeds your skill then the chance for disaster increases to become more likely.

Guys, I need some help chilling out. I've gotten more and more comfortable on the bike, my skills have developed nicely in my opinion. I'm no motoGP rider but I keep catching myself taking more and more risk on the bike. I keep pulling it off so either I'm very lucky or the skill is improving but not in the best way possible. I probably should go to the track, and there is the last track day of the season here next weekend, but it's currently a money situation holding me back. Any thoughts, help, advice is appreciated (other than calling me an idiot because I do that enough on my own after I slow back down).
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Most tracks have a program where you can work at the track and you will get a free track day. They are real serious about you showing up if you sign up so it's a real commitment. IMHO -It's a pretty good deal because you get a track day out of it. That takes care of your money situation. LOL Also cheaper than a ticket. :deal:
 
Ssky0078 said:
I follow you and would say that I feel like I'm at that 8/10ths range, maybe 9/10ths at the most. I guess that's the thing is the way I'm riding is not producing those adrenaline rush - caveman instincts to kick in. But, I mean I caught myself the other day going double the posted speed limit between/through traffic because I wanted to get to the front of the pack and queued up first at the next light. I felt like I just accomplished something, but my rational brain kicked in and said that was not necessary (it wasn't).

I'll think more on The Pace, I read that about a month ago, maybe I need to read again
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I'm thinking track days will not help your attitude or desire to "be first" at the stop light.
Track days will help improve your skills and, that is great .. but if you're trying to do dumb stuff on the street ...

I'm, thinking you need to try to change your competitive or aggressive thinking when you are on the street.
If track days improve your skills somewhat, and they also increase your perception of your abilities - you could take that perceived better ability and allow it to push you even more aggressive on the street.
You should settle down the the street.

You've already had some crashes ... learn from them ... be cool on the street.
We worry about you.
 
thepopularjock said:
Most tracks have a program where you can work at the track and you will get a free track day. They are real serious about you showing up if you sign up so it's a real commitment. IMHO -It's a pretty good deal because you get a track day out of it. That takes care of your money situation. LOL Also cheaper than a ticket. :deal:
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Good point, criminal speeding and loss of bike, impound fees, suspended license, and court fines, probably would add up to quite a lot. I'll contact them about working for them. Thanks for the awesome suggestion
 
I have this set of "rules" , they helped me some but...

-push only on known roads, like when you commute you have a few curbes you know very well .

-never push far away from home (it's related to first rule but if you crash the, trip is fked for you and the group)

- take small steps

- no more then 2x the speed limit (where the speed limit is reasonable :) )
 
maybe you should try a dirt bike you can only go wfo before you get tired it will also get you in great shape and it will also polish your street skills trees dont move and if your in the right place you cant get a ticket for going to fast i hear what you are saying though you kinda get used to going fast and its not as thrilling as when you first get your bike
 
lindy said:
I'm thinking track days will not help your attitude or desire to "be first" at the stop light.
Track days will help improve your skills and, that is great .. but if you're trying to do dumb stuff on the street ...

I'm, thinking you need to try to change your competitive or aggressive thinking when you are on the street.
If track days improve your skills somewhat, and they also increase your perception of your abilities - you could take that perceived better ability and allow it to push you even more aggressive on the street.
You should settle down the the street.

You've already had some crashes ... learn from them ... be cool on the street.
We worry about you.
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I guess from the crashes is I did learn that I was pushing on that edge of total pucker factor before I went down. Skill was nowhere near what it needed to be. Now I've hit almost 10,000 miles in 6 months (8500 since last crash) and I don't want to say it's too easy, but it is effortless to just manage the right gearing, punch the throttle, let off after I'm done getting past what I see as my next obstacle and then chill out. I used to drive like this too I guess and had previously confined myself to 4 cylinder vehicles (still manuals) so that I didn't have the power and temptation to use it. Huh, I have to think about the competition factor. Thanks.

Lonney said:
maybe you should try a dirt bike you can only go wfo before you get tired it will also get you in great shape and it will also polish your street skills trees dont move and if your in the right place you cant get a ticket for going to fast i hear what you are saying though you kinda get used to going fast and its not as thrilling as when you first get your bike
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I've been thinking about dirt as well, keeping my eye out for the right deal. And I have heard it is a great workout. However, it seems like a huge chunk of patients I see have had dirt bike or ATV accidents to start their chronic pain. It's probably even to the people with street bike injuries, and the street ones are usually worse. Thanks for the idea.
 
you halve a good point my back is trashed from dirt riding and doing construction i no longer go dirt riding because i cant ride easy but i was in the best shape of my life when i was riding just try and calm down man you cant see any patients if you become one:rmwl:
 
I find that if I go out riding with the goal of being smooth as possible, I ride fast, but controlled. I concentrate on smooth application and release of the brakes. I try to choose lines that let me carry momentum and keep shifting to a minimum.

Concentrate on one skill improvement at a time. Don't forget the low speed skills either. They can be fun as well. Can you turn your bars full left or right and ride circles without moving your bars?

Dirt riding is one of the best ways to learn how to ride IMHO. I raced for years. I also have a list of injuries that nobody wants.
 
I used to ride like an idiot also. (When you are trying to lose rear wheel traction in the middle of a turn so that maybe the front wheel will regain some traction, you are riding like an idiot.) I'd run through Golden Gate Canyon outside Denver so hard that when I got to the other end I would have to lean on a guard rail to keep from falling down while I lit my cigarette. I'd shake half an inch of tobacco out of the end of the cigarette trying to get it lit. Adrenaline Shakes! I love them. When I had calmed down enough I would roar right back through going the other way at which point I would head straight for a bar.

Somehow I survived.

I don't live in Denver anymore. I don't smoke or drink anymore. I ride within my limits today. I never fell down riding like that, but it was luck, not skill. When you are living on Luck you are destined to fail. I took a 5 year hiatus from riding. I came back much more focused on technique and less focused on the adrenaline rush of a near death experience. Someone earlier posted a link to "The Pace". I used that for a while. I can't tell you how to grow up and slow down, I can just tell you that I don't believe I would be here today if I hadn't backed off to 8/10s like someone else suggested.

I will admit that the ride is not quite is fun on the safe side of the "I'M GONNA' DIE!!" line, but it is a much longer ride.

Roy
 
This has kept me alive and relatively incident free for 23 years......

I never push as far as I can. I always leave 30% of my abilities on reserve to get out of a bad situation. Often times that correlates to maybe going 30% slower than I know I am capable of. Even with 30% of my abilities in reserve I am constantly learning and improving.

I don't really have any desire to be faster, that is not my goal. I have a desire to learn, to be smoother and more technical and the result is often times becoming faster and yes, even more safe as a result.
 
Lonney said:
you halve a good point my back is trashed from dirt riding and doing construction i no longer go dirt riding because i cant ride easy but i was in the best shape of my life when i was riding just try and calm down man you cant see any patients if you become one:rmwl:
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Ohh believe me, I will be riding and get a little bit past that 8/10ths feeling and my brain will start processing and visualizing the level of damage an off would have on my body, similar to like the Sherlock Holmes movies when he's doing his planning. I'm very much aware and this often will make me back off right away. Like a friendly little reminder from a greater power of what could be if I don't watch it.

loosenut said:
I find that if I go out riding with the goal of being smooth as possible, I ride fast, but controlled. I concentrate on smooth application and release of the brakes. I try to choose lines that let me carry momentum and keep shifting to a minimum.

Concentrate on one skill improvement at a time. Don't forget the low speed skills either. They can be fun as well. Can you turn your bars full left or right and ride circles without moving your bars?

Dirt riding is one of the best ways to learn how to ride IMHO. I raced for years. I also have a list of injuries that nobody wants.
Click to expand...

Thanks for reminding me about skill improvement concentration/focus. I was really focused on this for the first couple of months after getting the Fz1 but since I've got comfortable with my skill I've kind of stopped thinking about it. But, I can always get better.

Adrenaline Junkie said:
I used to ride like an idiot also. (When you are trying to lose rear wheel traction in the middle of a turn so that maybe the front wheel will regain some traction, you are riding like an idiot.) I'd run through Golden Gate Canyon outside Denver so hard that when I got to the other end I would have to lean on a guard rail to keep from falling down while I lit my cigarette. I'd shake half an inch of tobacco out of the end of the cigarette trying to get it lit. Adrenaline Shakes! I love them. When I had calmed down enough I would roar right back through going the other way at which point I would head straight for a bar.

Somehow I survived.

I don't live in Denver anymore. I don't smoke or drink anymore. I ride within my limits today. I never fell down riding like that, but it was luck, not skill. When you are living on Luck you are destined to fail. I took a 5 year hiatus from riding. I came back much more focused on technique and less focused on the adrenaline rush of a near death experience. Someone earlier posted a link to "The Pace". I used that for a while. I can't tell you how to grow up and slow down, I can just tell you that I don't believe I would be here today if I hadn't backed off to 8/10s like someone else suggested.

I will admit that the ride is not quite is fun on the safe side of the "I'M GONNA' DIE!!" line, but it is a much longer ride.

Roy
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That's pretty intense. I'm no where near that level anymore in anything I do, in my early 20s in the car, maybe. "Adrenaline Shakes" wow- I haven't had that yet. I don't think I'd like it, it's bad enough when my pulse speeds up a little.
 
Adrenaline Shakes are for real. I haven't had any in 10 years or so. That used to be my measure of good ride. If it didn't give you the shakes, it was a lame ride.

I now know that I was lame.
 
your options...keep riding however you want. keep riding but slower. stop riding. who cares, don't hurt anybody else and go ride your ride. what's more important to you, riding, health, or wealth
 
loosenut said:
I find that if I go out riding with the goal of being smooth as possible, I ride fast, but controlled. I concentrate on smooth application and release of the brakes. I try to choose lines that let me carry momentum and keep shifting to a minimum.

Concentrate on one skill improvement at a time. Don't forget the low speed skills either. They can be fun as well. Can you turn your bars full left or right and ride circles without moving your bars?

Dirt riding is one of the best ways to learn how to ride IMHO. I raced for years. I also have a list of injuries that nobody wants.
Click to expand...

Thanks for bringing up the low speed stuff. I started trying to do more and more challenging low speed stuff in parking lots. Instead of just finding the first available spot, I'm looking for a challenge. It's been fun.

jared p said:
your options...keep riding however you want. keep riding but slower. stop riding. who cares, don't hurt anybody else and go ride your ride. what's more important to you, riding, health, or wealth
Click to expand...

It's all important because at this point they are all aspects of my life that give me happiness. I'm selling my car this week because I really don't want to get back in it.
 
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