Air Box Mod Question

Skeeny,

Not sure I understand your use of the term "Fact."

As already mentioned the airbox subject has been debated for years. PK's findings are good bit different than what some others have found including Ivan who certainly knows his stuff and really would have no reason (like for additional profit) to have his customers make uneccessary free mods. If you read the entire post it is obvious that it is still a Debate rather than some sort of FACT. . .

PK's setup includes velocity stacks and no FCE (which opens the secondary flies sooner) so these MIGHT influence his results. Whittlebeast says that in his testing (data logged info from the road rather than dyno) there was no difference. However, his "test" was in either first or second gear which are hugely detuned (via retarding ignition timing). And so on and so and so on.

The stock R1 airbox has a much larger opening than gen II FZ1 and its airflow is much more direct. Does this mean you need a larger opening and or a more direct airpath to make R1 levels of power? Its DEBATABLE but it is one of the things that Yamaha did.
I haven't personally tested modded vs a cut air box. I do currently run Ivan's Emap which was developed for a cut airbox. I will eventually get his new flash and do away with the ignition module, fce, and cut flies. The new map for the Power Commander was still developed with a cut airbox so I'll keep it. Based on the reviews of the flash+full yosh+airboxmod+hipo filter+powercommander with new map, I won't be disappointed.
 
The only fact that I am certain of when it come to the gen2 airbox is that people will continue to debate it.

I will share my remembered experience. I did the free mods at the same time. I cut the air box, de-screened the air fiter and let my cats run away. What changed? The bike picked up some more some power making the front end rise a moment after the intake growl at 5800 RPM. Before the changes, I never had to worry about the front-end lofting unless I wanted it to. I like the intake growl and used it to my advantage knowing where the bike really started making HP. I ran the bike hard like this for ~4 months.


and the rest of my power mod story.

Next, I picked up a PC3 and FCE from Ivan and a slip-on. After a couple years, I picked up a used Yoshimura full sytem. The bike was really good and I was planning on getting the Ignition Module to complete the power mods. Then Ivan came out with his ECU flash and I jumped on that. It is a fantastic mod.

IMHO, Ivan's re-flash, a power commander and higher flow air filter is where I would spend my money on power mods to begin with.
 
But remember it's not how big the hole in the air box is, but it's ability for charge trapping. That is what matters. Especially with a EFI system. A big hole messes the entire thing up. There's a thread on the Fz8 side that supports this.

The difference with the R1 is that it is ram that has an effect over about 85 mph or so.

A modern airbox is hard to beat.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2
 
It seems pretty clear for the GenII that given the immense improvements in power and driveability that are possible through bolt on mods that Yamaha didn't always have these criteria in mind when they designed the bike. An anchor of an exhaust system stuffed up with two cats and overly short collectors (to fit the cat), an exup valve that does nothing except perhaps control noise, sencondary throttle plate characteristics that castrate the motor, and fueling that is snatchy and in general less than ideal. How does it follow that the airbox was designed to make R-1 levels of power? Its design was probably as much about sound control and packaging simplicity as it was about providing just enough for 125 rear wheel HP (and an anemic 70ish hp at 7k) A blanket statement that modern airboxes are pretty good doesn't really wash here . . .
 
Hellgate said:
But remember it's not how big the hole in the air box is, but it's ability for charge trapping. That is what matters. Especially with a EFI system. A big hole messes the entire thing up. There's a thread on the Fz8 side that supports this.

A modern airbox is hard to beat.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...

"Race Replicas" (ie, R1, GSXR, CBRR, RSV4 etc.) go through the design department with a totally different set of design priorities and cost limits then the lowly FZ1 and standard bikes in it's class!!! You have to concede and admit that! Right? That's one thing that makes your Tuono stand out above the crowd of standards. Unlike most detuned "standard" motorcycles, yours has been detuned very little, if any, from its RSV4 counterpart. Can you argue that the FZ1's R1 engine is not waayy detuned from R1 spec? airbox too? "IF" YamaMama actually DID take the time and effort to design a Helmholtz airbox for the FZ1, you can be assured it is NOT tuned for peak horsepower.

A few facts: A resonator airbox can only work efficiently in a specific rpm range. (FWIW: It takes a tuned resonant airbox, commonly called a Helmholtz resonator, to create this "charge trapping" that you mentioned) The effective rpm range can be widened at the expense of decreasing efficiency, conversely, it's effectiveness can also be greatly increased by narrowing it's rpm range, It's called the "Q" of the resonant circuit and that's just the undeniable physics of its nature.

So any resonant airbox will only be efficient within the designed rpm range. At rpm's above this range, the airbox actually begins to stifle and resatrict air flow. So if the FZ1's airbox is in fact a Helmholtz and it is detuned to a midrange rpm range, it will have a negative effect on the power made in the upper rpm's.

OK, my statements are generalized and borderline on philosophy, but I have seen too many dyno charts, here and on other forums, supporting my views and proving that most modern airbox's (unless they are on, and designed for, a "RACE" vehicle) stifle peak horsepower rather then promote it,,, by design, no less!!

Hellgate said:
A modern airbox is hard to beat.
Click to expand...

If your goal is peak horse power, then It's my humble opinion that statement is Total hawgwarsh (LOL)

Proven too many times!!

I'll step off my Soap Box now,,,, put my Flame suit on!!!! ;)

eurban said:
It seems pretty clear for the GenII that given the immense improvements in power and driveability that are possible through bolt on mods that Yamaha didn't always have these criteria in mind when they designed the bike. An anchor of an exhaust system stuffed up with two cats and overly short collectors (to fit the cat), an exup valve that does nothing except perhaps control noise, sencondary throttle plate characteristics that castrate the motor, and fueling that is snatchy and in general less than ideal. How does it follow that the airbox was designed to make R-1 levels of power? Its design was probably as much about sound control and packaging simplicity as it was about providing just enough for 125 rear wheel HP (and an anemic 70ish hp at 7k) A blanket statement that modern airboxes are pretty good doesn't really wash here . . .
Click to expand...

Well said. It comes down to the factories design priorities and their perceived intended use of the bike, doesn't it.
 
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I hear what you are saying. I'll respond tonight when I can get on a computer. The phone it too much effort. :)

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Hellgate said:
I hear what you are saying. I'll respond tonight when I can get on a computer. The phone it too much effort. :)

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2
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Yeah, my Rzr Max is a pain to type more then a sentence or two. Looking forward to the good response that I know you'll have.
 
Okay, here we go.

I agree that the R1 air box design is much better than the FZ1 air box. I disagree that a chopped up FZ1 air box is better than an OEM FZ1 air box.

The reason the R1 makes much more power than the FZ1 is not all in the air box, there are too many other differences. Yes ram air make a big difference over 85 mph, but that is not the whole story.

The R1 has different cams, different FI system, variable in take runners, higher compression, and a completely different exhaust system, 4:1:2.

But most importantly the programing of the ECU is much more complex and much more refined than the FZ1. The FZ1 ECU is pretty simple. If I recall correctly, (three whiskeys at this point :) ) The R1 ECU has over 240 FUEL maps alone!!! Simply amazing.

Back to the FZ1. The programming of the FZ1 is not very sophisticated because the variables of the motor are not as complex, FI system, variable stacks, etc, not the air box.

The biggest improvement one can make to the FZ1 is a flash. A flash, even with a stock air box and can is NIGHT and DAY from how the bike is delivered. Adding a can helps, but the ECU and be programmed to open the flapper valve all the time. As many people are finding out today with Ivan, several of us discovered this two years ago.

The stock air box is good because it works with the whole package that Yamaha delivered. An FI system depends on pressure within the air box to trap the charge within the air box. Trapping is the most important aspect of an FI system.

Remember that peak horsepower is not the whole story. Peak HP is only one measure. Most riders never use peak hp, whereas all riders need good/smooth throttle response that linear. Point being, a sweep test is only on point of reference/data.

Most tuners use a sweep test, not a step test with a measurement of "flux." Flux is the difference between power pulses, and smoothness of cylinders. So in other words, is the motor operating smoothing, and powerfully.

So much of what make a bike fun to ride is how the throttle rolls on. Many of us on this site came from the FZ6. A fun bike with TERRIBLE throttle response, much worse than the FZ1; twist...wait...twist more...wait more..twist again as the bike begins to flop over because there is no more gyroscopic effect to pick the bike up out of a turn. Then WHAM (not the '80's band) the throttle hits.

With a stock air-box, a flash the FZ1 is a wonderful bike to ride. The mid-range is FAT, the roll on is strong, and hesitation of the throttle is gone.

Now to RC_1's point; yes the Tuono's air intake is wonderful, but that doesn't mean the FZ1 is bad. It's really not a bad air box. Before people jump up and down, take a look at 1970's and 1980's air boxes, they are terrible! The filter is paper, it's at the back of the bike, and is sucks in hot air all day, the FZ1 does not.

The FZ1 air box is at the front of the bike and the size is proportional to the FI system.

Is it perfect? Oh heck no! Is it terrible? Oh heck no!

Is the Tuono air box better than the FZ1? Oh heck yes! But it is two different bikes, so really, who cares.

The FZ1 is a wonderful bike with a flash.

My take, just me? Get a flash, get a pipe, and skip the rest. It's only an FZ1. If you want an R1, go buy one.

:Rockon: :icon_beer:

Cheers boys and girls!!!
 
Well said Hellgate.

All I have done to my engine is add a BMC filter, GYTR carbon slip on, PCV and a dynotune. The dynotune set up the powerband as you state with a nice linear throttle response which makes it a lot nicer to ride.

Having said that, the best upgrade I made to the bike was adding the Ohlins suspension and Marchesini rims. This made the bike a lot better in the turns and gave me a whole new level of confidence with the bike.
 
Hellgate said:
Okay, here we go.

I agree that the R1 air box design is much better than the FZ1 air box. I disagree that a chopped up FZ1 air box is better than an OEM FZ1 air box.

The reason the R1 makes much more power than the FZ1 is not all in the air box, there are too many other differences. Yes ram air make a big difference over 85 mph, but that is not the whole story.

The R1 has different cams, different FI system, variable in take runners, higher compression, and a completely different exhaust system, 4:1:2.

But most importantly the programing of the ECU is much more complex and much more refined than the FZ1. The FZ1 ECU is pretty simple. If I recall correctly, (three whiskeys at this point :) ) The R1 ECU has over 240 FUEL maps alone!!! Simply amazing.

Back to the FZ1. The programming of the FZ1 is not very sophisticated because the variables of the motor are not as complex, FI system, variable stacks, etc, not the air box.

The biggest improvement one can make to the FZ1 is a flash. A flash, even with a stock air box and can is NIGHT and DAY from how the bike is delivered. Adding a can helps, but the ECU and be programmed to open the flapper valve all the time. As many people are finding out today with Ivan, several of us discovered this two years ago.
Click to expand...

My comparison of "Race Replica's" (Super Sports) to Standards was generic, I thought that was self-evident, but you reinforced my point that they (SS's) have more engineering, more time, more money etc. spent on them in the developmental stage as well as the end product. They are better sorted overall from front to back and their whole intake and exhaust tract is well designed for “PEAK Performance” (with the over riding priority that it MUST meet EPA standards). My point was not the specifics of why the SS's are head and shoulder above the “Standard” motorcycles, which have airbox designs that are, at best, "after-thought" or "just make it work and meet EPA spec" type designs.

I think you may have unintentionally clouded the subject with some unrelated side tracks :), that, by-the-way, I believe are true and I agree with for the most part, but has no bearing on the original subject of modded vs stock airbox and it's ability to help an engine make horsepower. Sure an ECU reflash is awesome, I have no quam with that, I just don’t think that the reflash topic, or that the R1 having 240 maps, has anything to do with our airbox discussion??


Hellgate said:
The stock air box is good because it works with the whole package that Yamaha delivered. An FI system depends on pressure within the air box to trap the charge within the air box. Trapping is the most important aspect of an FI system.
Click to expand...

Charge trapping is actually the effect of trapping or sqeezing just a little more air/fuel mixture (charge) into the combustion chamber just before the intake valves close, essentially “trapping” more “charge”. This is accomplished by an effect associated with the whole resonance airbox thing. Which saying “resonant airbox” is misleading really, since the actual resonance involves the whole intake tract from the pistons all the way through to the air intake port of the airbox (Regardless of Carb’ed or EFI). And as I stated before, depending on the designed RPM range, and your intentions, has a lot to do with whether cutting the box will help peak performance or not.

Hellgate said:
Remember that peak horsepower is not the whole story. Peak HP is only one measure. Most riders never use peak hp, whereas all riders need good/smooth throttle response that linear. Point being, a sweep test is only on point of reference/data.
Click to expand...

This is why, in my previous post, I specifically typed "If your goal is peak horsepower". This discussion was never about using flux dynos or any other dyno techniques, or about midrange smoothness, etc. I will say that with the right MAP in my PCIII, my midrange is smooth and punchy with my hacked up airbox.

(off topic again and it gets cloudier!)

Hellgate said:
Most tuners use a sweep test, not a step test with a measurement of "flux." Flux is the difference between power pulses, and smoothness of cylinders. So in other words, is the motor operating smoothing, and powerfully.

So much of what make a bike fun to ride is how the throttle rolls on. Many of us on this site came from the FZ6. A fun bike with TERRIBLE throttle response, much worse than the FZ1; twist...wait...twist more...wait more..twist again as the bike begins to flop over because there is no more gyroscopic effect to pick the bike up out of a turn. Then WHAM (not the '80's band) the throttle hits.
Click to expand...

I (actually my wife!) owned a 2007 FZ6 for a few years, just recently sold it to buy her a TRX400EX,,, and MOST (a large %) of the FZ6 forum guys are the types that think that Yamaha Engineers KNOW ALL and that there is NO WAY any normal human could improve upon what they have graciously designed for us lowly peabrains!! Hawgwarsh!!!

(And cloudier!)

Hellgate said:
With a stock air-box, a flash the FZ1 is a wonderful bike to ride. The mid-range is FAT, the roll on is strong, and hesitation of the throttle is gone.
Click to expand...
That’s why I plan to get mine reflashed as soon as I can down my bike for a few days.

(Even Cloudier!!!)

Hellgate said:
Now to RC_1's point; yes the Tuono's air intake is wonderful, but that doesn't mean the FZ1 is bad. It's really not a bad air box. Before people jump up and down, take a look at 1970's and 1980's air boxes, they are terrible! The filter is paper, it's at the back of the bike, and is sucks in hot air all day, the FZ1 does not.

The FZ1 air box is at the front of the bike and the size is proportional to the FI system.

Is it perfect? Oh heck no! Is it terrible? Oh heck no!

Is the Tuono air box better than the FZ1? Oh heck yes! But it is two different bikes, so really, who cares.

The FZ1 is a wonderful bike with a flash.

My take, just me? Get a flash, get a pipe, and skip the rest. It's only an FZ1. If you want an R1, go buy one.

:Rockon: :icon_beer:

Cheers boys and girls!!!
Click to expand...

Some of those are good points, and I agree with some of it, but still, these points are somewhat off topic and unrelated to the basic discussion. ,,, I mean, saying “The FZ1 is a wonderful bike with a flash”!! I won’t disagree,, but it's just not on the point.

The technical discussion is great. A lot of good points have been made,,, even that aftermarket shocks help the handling of the FZ1,,:),,, but:

Here’s the Bottom line for me, and I hope to get us back on track and add a silver lining to this cloudiness of our off topic topics: The Lar’s Airbox mod with aftermarket filter allows the FZ1 motor to make more power compared to stock!!

I don’t know Ivan personally but I have used his products and my dyno results (as well as numerous other people on this and various forums) support his well publicized dyno graph’s.
The bike used for both runs were identical except:
BLUE is stock airbox + stock filter
RED is Lars modded airbox + aftermarket filter

IMvsIMabmod.gif


I don’t know the guys at Factory pro but they have no horse-in-the-race, so I see no reason for them to publicize fictional info about a FREE modification. Notice the GREEN line goes higher then the RED line!!

dyno_chart,Yamaha,FZ1,06,GREEN,Y77_wo_snorkel,RED,Y77%20stacks_only,BLUE,other_aftermarket_stacks.gif


I don’t know the individual known as PK001 (In the other thread mentioned) but he seemed to support your side of the discussion, but even his graph didn’t show a loss. BTW: This is the ONLY actual dyno graph I have seen specifically for the FZ1 that shows little to no gains when comparing stock airbox to a modified one!
LarsVsStandardAirbox_zps5d03a411.jpg


Whew!!! that was a long one, and yes I know,, I didn't sway you,, well, I'm not swayed either (LOL) but it has been kept civil unlike a lot of this type discussion. Good job!!
 
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Yeah Phil RC 1 nice thread mate, the original thread by Senallttam asked the question whether or not cutting of the airbox v standard.
The dyno graph that was done by PK 001 back to back same mods but with different airbox Senallttam has his answer.
Re Factory Pro looks to me they are trying to flog there Factory Pro Superflare Stacks!:fencers:
 
skeeny said:
Yeah Phil RC 1 nice thread mate, the original thread by Senallttam asked the question whether or not cutting of the airbox v standard.
Click to expand...

Hellgate and I have kept this civil. I may be mistaken but you sound a bit snippy. Since we are from different countries, I could be misinterpreting your meaning though. If so, I apologize.

So,, Yeah you got me. When I referred to "the original topic" I was referring to the topic that I and Hellgate were actively discussing. I should have wrote "our original topic", meaning mine and Hellgates topic. (Any grammar specialists out there? Would that have made my statement any clearer?) I wasn't going all the way back to the OP, I apologize for my incorrect wording. This thread has morphed quite a bit since the OP.

skeeny said:
The dyno graph that was done by PK 001 back to back same mods but with different airbox Senallttam has his answer.
Re Factory Pro looks to me they are trying to flog there Factory Pro Superflare Stacks!:fencers:
Click to expand...

I still don't know him personally. I can read and I did read what he claims were the test conditions. I just have low confidence in his result since his test is the only FZ1 test that I have ever seen publically posted that shows no gain in FZ1 HP with a modded box. And there are so many posted graphs (here and on other FZ1 forums) that support and coincide with Ivan's graph and the F-Pro tests.

If you slow down and look closely at the Factory Pro graph, you'll see that both of the graphs that I refer to include their stacks. The ONLY difference between the RED and GREEN graph, is the lower power RED line is with STOCK AIRBOX and the higher horsepower GREEN line is with what they call the "airbox snorkel mod"
 
Senalltam. Never underestimate the butt dyno. My butt dyno tells me my bike is faster after a good wash and wax. Now I just wish someone will show some dyno plots to prove my theory.
 
Phil_RC_1 said:
The ONLY difference between the RED and GREEN graph, is the lower power RED line is with STOCK AIRBOX and the higher horsepower GREEN line is with what they call the "airbox snorkel mod"
Click to expand...

Phil, you put a lot of time and effort into presenting your side of this discussion. I not only agree with you, but thank you for doing so.

Dave
 
senallttam said:
I'm a bit late, but here are before and after pictures. My butt dyno says it's more responsive from about 5k up but I could be wrong.View attachment 15299

View attachment 15300
Oops don't know why they uploaded upside down..
Click to expand...



This small mod yields appx 1 hp with a BMC filter....to me this is not worth doing and does not change the mixture very much at high rpms.

To get the rest, you need to do the large mod, and cut the flap off the front as well.
You need to add fuel also... :)


Ivan
 
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Ivan_IPP said:
This small mod yields appx 1 hp with a BMC filter....to me this is not worth doing and does not change the mixture very much at high rpms.

To get the rest, you need to do the large mod, and cut the flap off the front as well.
You need to add fuel also... :)


Ivan
Click to expand...

Oh yes, go big early! LOL

End up with the same result on my little ride.
 
Ivan_IPP said:
This small mod yields appx 1 hp with a BMC filter....to me this is not worth doing and does not change the mixture very much at high rpms.

To get the rest, you need to do the large mod, and cut the flap off the front as well.
You need to add fuel also... :)


Ivan
Click to expand...

I'm just saving up for a power commander, then I'll be able to do that. Then, of course, first thing right after that on the list is sending you my ECU to get it flashed :)
 
Last night, I went ahead and chopped my airbox all the way down to the Lars mod and descreened the stock filter. I went for a test ride today, and there is no doubt in my mind that the throttle response has increased from 4.5k up! Also, I don't remember where I read this, but if you rev the bike in neutral, the tach will either 1. Rev smoothly and return to idle 2. The tach needle will hang somewhere upon deceleration (running lean) or 3. After you rev it, the tach needle will go below past idle then bounce back up to idle (running rich). If this test is correct, my bike is still running slightly rich after these mods (airbox, gutted cat, slip on, ais).
 
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